Bavarian MVO 4th Class

[Yankee]

Hello Gentlemen

Can anybody tell me if this 4th class MVO is a clean example or it had swds and was removed at a later date. I understand the lower grades are more rare without swds and they can be removed to increase the value. Is there any secret that can be easily identified if this is the case in my situation. I was unaware that this happens till a friend brought this to my attention. I'm hoping somebody can educate me and all others in MVO's

Sincerely

Yankee

[Yankee]

[Yankee]

[Yankee]

[Guest Rick Research]

It would be very hard to tell, if done carefully, on a piece which has been so prettily cleaned like this one, so there is no patina at all to judge by. Weiss & Co pieces always have hand finishing marks on the edges anyway. But it looks like you have correct pre-war gold centers and the scrollwork looks good from what I can see in the scans.

I don't know whether a M1905 4th Class peacetime actually SHOULD be priced any more than an early World War with Xs and the same gold centers.

[Yankee]

It would be very hard to tell, if done carefully, on a piece which has been so prettily cleaned like this one, so there is no patina at all to judge by. Weiss & Co pieces always have hand finishing marks on the edges anyway. But it looks like you have correct pre-war gold centers and the scrollwork looks good from what I can see in the scans.

I don't know whether a M1905 4th Class peacetime actually SHOULD be priced any more than an early World War with Xs and the same gold centers.

Hi Rick

On the reverse scrollwork there is the WC 950 mark. If MVO awarded with swds would it be double marked once on the swds and again on scrollwork? Unfortunately my scrollwork is slightly bent upwards which is odd. Thanks for your kind help.

Sincerely

Yankee

[Bernd D]

Hi Rick

On the reverse scrollwork there is the WC 950 mark. If MVO awarded with swds would it be double marked once on the swds and again on scrollwork? Unfortunately my scrollwork is slightly bent upwards which is odd. Thanks for your kind help.

Sincerely

Yankee

Yankee,

I as far as I know only Leser and Hemmerle produced pre WWI MVO without swords and the mark 950 is likely WWI. Nevertheless a beautiful piece.

Bernd

[Schießplatzmeister]

Dear Yankee:

You posed and interesting question regarding Weiss and Co. badges. Yes, a badge with swords was marked on the scrollwork AND on the swords. I will have to look at a piece in my collection when I am home to give you specifics.....stay tuned!

"SPM"

[Yankee]

Yankee,

I as far as I know only Leser and Hemmerle produced pre WWI MVO without swords and the mark 950 is likely WWI. Nevertheless a beautiful piece.

Bernd

Hi Bernd

Thanks for that, perhaps I'll have a bit of luck to find the other makers in the 4th class & make a family. I always find slight differences in jewelers making the same order. 3rd class forget it, don't see too many of them floating around or I need to be living in Bavaria....

Sincerely

Yankee

[Yankee]

Dear Yankee:

You posed and interesting question regarding Weiss and Co. badges. Yes, a badge with swords was marked on the scrollwork AND on the swords. I will have to look at a piece in my collection when I am home to give you specifics.....stay tuned!

"SPM"

Hi Schie

Was most curious to know this, saw another MVO 4th class w/swds, however at the time did not think to look behind blades. The cases were all marked the same, never crossed swds pictured?

Thanks Yankee

[Stogieman]

Based on the scans shown, I don't think this piece came with swords. The ones I have seen with swords removed, the shape of the triangle in the filagree was always quite clearly impacted by the swords. or rather by the rivet used to affix the swords and the usual "wobble" they have once installed. Bigger scans of the top arm/suspension would be better.

Next, any clear impression of swords in the lid/liner of the case? The presence does not necessarily mean they were removed from the cross.... the cross and case may be mis-matched. My call is its' fine, based on these photos. For what it's worth..

[Yankee]

Based on the scans shown, I don't think this piece came with swords. The ones I have seen with swords removed, the shape of the triangle in the filagree was always quite clearly impacted by the swords. or rather by the rivet used to affix the swords and the usual "wobble" they have once installed. Bigger scans of the top arm/suspension would be better.

Next, any clear impression of swords in the lid/liner of the case? The presence does not necessarily mean they were removed from the cross.... the cross and case may be mis-matched. My call is its' fine, based on these photos. For what it's worth..

Thanks Stogieman for your thoughts, always great to hear that a order has not been tamper with. Saw a Knight 2nd class in gold ( 1866 - 1905 ) where the swds had been removed for there was a small dark square opening in the scroll work . Very sad for someone to do that ouchhhhhhhhhh. I too noticed a " wobble " MVO w/swds and I thought it was only an extreme exception that the swds were loose. I see now that it is the norm. Thanks for all the info.

Sincerely

Yankee

[Schießplatzmeister]

Dear Yankee:

I have a MVO II w/swords in silver-gilt made be Weiss & Co. The piece is marked "WC 950" on the scrollwork, and "WC 900" on the swords. In my estimation, the piece was manufactured in 1917 or 1918.

Best regards,

"SPM"

p.s.: Oh, yes, I forgot to mention that the MVO cases NEVER mention "swords" or show a depiction of swords on the case lid (as far as I know). "With crown" IS mentioned on cases for badges with a crown however.

Edited January 24, 2007 by Schie?platzmeister

[Yankee]

Dear Yankee:

I have a MVO II w/swords in silver-gilt made be Weiss & Co. The piece is marked "WC 950" on the scrollwork, and "WC 900" on the swords. In my estimation, the piece was manufactured in 1917 or 1918.

Best regards,

"SPM"

p.s.: Oh, yes, I forgot to mention that the MVO cases NEVER mention "swords" or show a depiction of swords on the case lid (as far as I know). "With crown" IS mentioned on cases for badges with a crown however.

Hi Schie

Like how the Bavarians mark everything, I can assume the other Bavarian jewelers did the same. To collect all MVO would be a lifetime task. Glade to have right case. Many thanks

Sincerely

Yankee

[medalnet]

I do think that Bernd D is correct about this...but, good news, in the not to far future a book about the MVO will be published and will give answers to all those questions. I have seen the work and can only say that it will be one of those books one must have. Amazing research, amazing pictures, amazing, amazing amazing...and best, researched and written all in Bavaria by a true Bavarian.

Lets be patient then

[saschaw]

I have no good feeling with the above posted cross, the shape looks IMHO not good. Better pictures would, as always, be better.

Here's a detail of my "Leser":

[Deruelle]

Good news. Can you tell us who write this book and the most important when it will be published.

Regards

Christophe

I do think that Bernd D is correct about this...but, good news, in the not to far future a book about the MVO will be published and will give answers to all those questions. I have seen the work and can only say that it will be one of those books one must have. Amazing research, amazing pictures, amazing, amazing amazing...and best, researched and written all in Bavaria by a true Bavarian.

Lets be patient then

[Yankee]

I have no good feeling with the above posted cross, the shape looks IMHO not good. Better pictures would, as always, be better.

Here's a detail of my "Leser":

I don't understand " shape looks IMHO ", this one designed by Weiss. Perhaps each jeweler had their own style of scroll form.

I'll try to make larger

[Yankee]

Hope this one is OK

Thanks

Yankee

[saschaw]

Hmm, to me it looks like there have once beeen swords and the hole been "overworked" after removing them, but it is actually NEVER easy to say, and I'm not an expert on these ...

[Stogieman]

I think we're talking about different makers... The scrollwork/suspension does vary between makers...

[saschaw]

Sure we are, but Bern D made a indeed good point, hmm?!

I as far as I know only Leser and Hemmerle produced pre WWI MVO without swords and the mark 950 is likely WWI.

If this IS true, we shouldn't buy such Weiss crosses. I hope the soon coming book might enlighten us in this topic.

A question to those who know the book and writer better: Will it also refer to the merit crosses, or just to the order?

[medalnet]

Good news. Can you tell us who write this book and the most important when it will be published.

Regards

Christophe

Christophe,

be paitent and surprised. I will only say that it will be one of the best ever published.

Andreas

[Yankee]

Hard to imagine Weiss & Co only manufactured MVO 4th class with swords only. Surely some recipients received the order without swords during the Great War.

[Stogieman]

I would agree with Yankee... There were awards of the MVO/MVK without swords 1914-18