EK 1939 S&L RKs -- made in Britain

[George Stimson]

I've heard for years about the RKs that were supposedly assembled in Britain with the dies from Steinhauer & Luck, but I have never seen pictures of any! Can anybody post pics of this legendary post-war RK?

[George Stimson]

Nobody has a picture of one of these exotic beasts?

[dond]

Not that they would admit to.

Don

[Gordon Williamson]

If we assume for the moment that the S&L dies were used in England to make RKs good enough to be passed off as original, I wonder how anyone would presume to be able to tell one of these apart from one made on these same dies, by S&L themselves, before the dies were sold off ?

[George Stimson]

Well, you know how it is, Gordon. Some people just "know" things, even if without the benefit of facts, evidence, or experience.

[Dietrich]

Apart form the fact that so far this is all an unsubstatiated rumor with no hard evidence, names or pictures behind it: Where's the difference if S&L made those on a cripple die in the 70-80 or a British outfit? Both definetely post war and therefore considered not genuine.

I know, George, you only wanted to pull some more info on that rumor and I see that you have not succeded on both sides of the atlantic to get something substantial - and I have a Deja-Vue

Dietrich

[George Stimson]

So, nobody has anything, I guess....?

[Guest Darrell]

So, nobody has anything, I guess....?

←

George ... me thinks you'll have to fly over there and turn the Island upside down and give it a good shake !!

[George Stimson]

Wait a minute -- I think I might have found one....

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Ah yes, the Unicorn hunt. You know they're extinct now?

[George Stimson]

If they ever existed....

[Gordon Williamson]

Well, you know how it is, Gordon.  Some people just "know" things, even if without the benefit of facts, evidence, or experience. 

←

True George, very true. I'm sure you might even find some who, despite only a handful of years back were asking on the Forums for advice on how to tell an S&L apart from other makers, can now remember details of die characteristics of S&L RK they saw 30 or 40 years ago. Maybe they "bought" their experience along with their new toys

[PKeating]

On the trail of the unicorn: could this be a London-made Steinhauer & L?ck RK? It is an awful snapshot - someone sent it to me years ago - but appears to be a Knight's Cross with frames made using the flawed Steinhauer & L?ck dies. The die flaw marks are quite visible on the beading of the horizontal arms. What if anything suggests that it is a London-made cross rather than one of the crosses produced by S&L in the late 1970s or very early 1980s before the dies were sold to a London dealer in a covert deal? I do not think S&L marked their crosses with their wartime PKF Lieferant number and the silver content in this manner, do you?

PK

Edited September 17, 2005 by PKeating

[PKeating]

Another indicator supporting the contention that we might have a rare unicorn photograph is the state of the jump ring on the supposed London fake. Note how it appears to have been worked with files to remove the die flashing, as on many wartime S&L KCs? Now take a look at a 1957 pattern KC by S&L below. Note how S&L didn't really bother reworking the jump rings? Why should they? The cross did the job.

PK

[PKeating]

The above 1957 cross has slight flaws on the beading, indicating that the frame haves were struck after the dies had suffered damage that worsened over the years. Below is an early 1957 RK by S&L with no apparent evidence of any die flaws at all.

PK

[PKeating]

A handsome 1939 pattern S&L KC with the beginnings of die flaws apparent on the beading.

PK

[PKeating]

And here is another KC, apparently by S&L, with Adrian Forman's seal. Again, the photo is of low quality but could this be a real S&L KC sold by the dealer who acquired the dies back in 1981 after his supply of convincing KCs for moneyed Americans via Frau Anneliese Klietmann dried up? Like other 'top dealers', Forman has sold a lot of good stuff alongside the fakes.

Whatever the case, as Dietrich says, any S&L KC with flaws on the frame beading has to be treated with suspicion because of the existence of 1957 pattern S&L KCs with no flaws. It would be great to be able to identify the differences between a cross produced in London in, say, 1982 or 1983 and finished by a British jeweller and a cross produced in Ludenscheid by S&L back in the 1960s before their Iron Crosses started resembling cheaply made Christmas decorations. The differences between a London-made cross of the 1980s and one of S&L's crosses from the period immediately predating the sale of the dies would be considerable given the overall degeneration in quality of the S&L product by that time.

PK

Edited September 17, 2005 by PKeating

[Dietrich]

The question might be elusive and -IMHO - rather academical. Maybe we can reduce it to just (another) simple rumor.

Fact is that S&L produced post-war swastika crosses which now can be identified with a relatively high level of certainty. It must be a B-Type, but it must not be with flaws! That is the tricky thing for beginners in this hobby. DN starts this post-war with the 935 and includes the 800-4 as pre-45.

Flawed A-Type crosses are perfectly OK, even if heavily flawed. There's no doubt in my mind! So flaws are not really the indicator, only together with B-Type.

Here is another post-war example with the strange placement of the marking. Currently for sale at a swiss auction and labeled "Typical knight's cross of Steinhauer&L?ck before 1945 for private purchase"

As for Gordon's unicorn? Another collector rumor, I guess.

[Dietrich]

And the reverse.

I must admit that I cannot clearly see whether it's a B-Type, but other say they saw it, so it is clearly post war!

BUT it is not Made in GB or anywhere else. This is still "Made in Deutschland"

Edited September 17, 2005 by Dietrich

[Biro]

While Prospers picture and summation of the crudely filed ring is an eye opener, and probably indicative of - at the very least - a 'messed with' piece... the markings on the piece with the filed loop are impossible to see.

Unless there is something other than the placement of these spurious marks on the 1st example that Prosper can shed light on, then I have to agree with Dietrich in that I can't see anything that would specifically point this example back to 'London'... and hence our Unicorn...

Marshall

[Chris Boonzaier]

And the reverse.

I must admit that I cannot clearly see whether it's a B-Type, but other say they saw it, so it is clearly post war!

BUT it is not Made in GB or anywhere else. This is still "Made in Deutschland"

←

How do we know it is not made in Britain?

[Dietrich]

How do we know it is not made in Britain?

←

Chris,

If it's a B-Type (which I think it is) it has less flaws than some of the 57 S&L using the same frame. So at that point in time the dies were still in the ownership of S&L - unless the 57 edition was a firmed out job to GB, of course.

Dietrich

[Chris Boonzaier]

The S+L rim argument is a complicated thing indeed.

To complicate it more... let me throw in the following thoughts.

Thought 1) An RK rim is not a perishable item.

Thought 2) Silver is not a use once material.

So, to those thoughts

1) we are not at Walmart fish counter with a first in first out ratation method.

2) We dont have to consider "If Imake a purse out of this leather and it does not sell... I have wasted it.

Which means... for thought 2) there is no danger in over production, if you make to many silver items, you can always reuse the silver, you have no loss ... and for thought 1) if you are making rims faster than you need them, you will have to store them. as they are not perishable, you have no "best before date" ... ie. you can make a pile of flawless rims, put them in a box. make a pile of flawed rims...... when it comes to putting the crosses together, the first few boxes have flawed rims and they are made with these.

At some stage they have stopped making rims and depending on what is left they can use flawed or non flawed stock which was made eons ago.

[PKeating]

The dies were in London early in the summer of 1981. I know because I saw them with my own eyes when they were offered to the late Jeff Craig alias Hurst. He hesitated because of the damage and the dies were reportedly sold to Adrian Forman. I cannot prove that Forman bought them and nor can I prove that he ever produced KCs using them but the question is academic as far as I am concerned because I view all 1939 pattern S&L KCs with die flaws as suspect, no matter how anyone tries to explain them.

PK

[George Stimson]

Hey Prosper, in your opinion (or knowledge, if it's the case) had the dies you saw in England in 1981 ever been "repaired"?