2 medal bars - one person?

[HeikoGrusdat]

Here are 2 medal bars from last week at Weitze.... am I right that both belonged to the same man? One pre-war bar and one ww1-bar? Would it be possible to ID this man with these 3 pre-war awards and the additional crown for the Michael on the second bar? Looks very interesting to me with this nice mixture of combattant and non-combattant war awards.... any comments are welcome.

First the "pre-war-bar"

[HeikoGrusdat]

and the much bigger "ww1-war-bar"

[Ed_Haynes]

A fascinating and lovely pair. While, personally, I don't much like the ass-backwards frack mountings, these are a major slice of history. I await wise words from the experts!

[Mike Dwyer]

Heiko,

Both are beautiful bars! Wonderful!!!

[Jacky]

They are both beautifull,

there is even an order of Malta between the lippe honour-cross and the michael the brave with crown.

But the question remains still whether they belong together or not....

What makes you thinking that they are belonging together???

Kind regards,

Jacky

[ErikMuller]

Wow what a lovely bar! If both bars belonged together, my best guess would be that the guy was a civilian doctor who served on the Mediterranean during WW1.

Ch.,

Erik

[Jacky]

That sounds plausible,

but the strange thing appears to be that the merit cross of the alberts order appears to have precedence

over the knights cross of this order.

And it's the merit cross that maked me wondering about how someone could earn the knights grade before WW1 and then get a merit cross during WW1....

First the higher grade, then the lower grade?? Is this possible or am I totally wrong with classificating the medals????

But the medical link is visible.

Wonder who's bar this would be.

Kind regards,

Jacky

Edited February 19, 2007 by Jacky

[HeikoGrusdat]

Jacky, I think they belong together because both appeared at the same time at the same dealer.....

The saxon "merit cross" you are talking about is the cross for war aid service....so in my eyes it is a war award and has to come in front of the peacetime knight... am I right?

[Jacky]

In that case is it indeed correct to have this one before the knights grade.

And then it's possible too to have both the knights grade as well as the cross for war aid service.

Kind regards,

Jacky

[saschaw]

The saxon "merit cross" you are talking about is the cross for war aid service....so in my eyes it is a war award and has to come in front of the peacetime knight... am I right?

Sure you are ...

I'm with the idea they might belong together, but I'm not with the Mediteranean link. The Maltese Order/Cross as in my humble opinion quite similar to the Johanniter Order, but given to Katholics, not Protestants (Johannniter Order was a ONLY Protestant decoration!). I don't think they had to have been there for getting it.

Great set, by the way!

And then it's possible too to have both the knights grade as well as the cross for war aid service.

Well, IF they belong together, he had the Albrecht Order before the war, so he cannot be for war aid.

Edited February 19, 2007 by saschaw

[ErikMuller]

I'm with the idea they might belong together, but I'm not with the Mediteranean link. The Maltese Order/Cross as in my humble opinion quite similar to the Johanniter Order, but given to Katholics, not Protestants (Johannniter Order was a ONLY Protestant decoration!). I don't think they had to have been there for getting it.

I thought Mediteranean because of the Turkish Red Crescent Society Medal, I know the Maltese Cross of Merit was also awarded for medical relief in Russia and France during WW1, but, if I'm correct, the TRCS Medal was only awarded to those aiding the TRCS at their own fronts.

[saschaw]

I thought Mediteranean because of the Turkish Red Crescent Society Medal, I know the Maltese Cross of Merit was also awarded for medical relief in Russia and France during WW1, but, if I'm correct, the TRCS Medal was only awarded to those aiding the TRCS at their own fronts.

Oh, my apologize. So you should be right, yes ...

[Jacky]

Great set, by the way!

Well, IF they belong together, he had the Albrecht Order before the war, so he cannot be for war aid.

Hi Saschaw,

I didn't mean that both crosses should be for war aid, but I can say it alternately

He could have had then both the cross for war aid as well as the albrechts order .....

Perhaps is that clearer

[Guest Rick Research]

Lovely bars, but oh those untraceable civilians!!!!

The Frackspange is in correct Prussian-first-war awards next-the peacetime-foreign last precedence. Absence of any military reserve long service awards makes me think this was a businessman type heavily involved in the war effort--

for a similar bar, I think Claudio posted Konsul/shipbuilder Kunstmann's Frackspange from the Seymour collection some time back.

[Paul R]

Incredible bar set. The ultimate noncombatant bar.

[HeikoGrusdat]

Absence of any military reserve long service awards makes me think this was a businessman type heavily involved in the war effort--

a businessman with three direct medical awards (prussian red cross 3. and 2.class + turkish red halfmoon) ??? Shouldn`t we concentrate on doctors with this combination?

I remember the Kunstmann bar - what a beauty with even more shiny stuff on it...

[Jacky]

humm hummm

Now I'm interested...

What kind of did the bar look like??

Anyone happen to know the link or picture??

Kind regards,

Jacky

[Guest Rick Research]

The Orders and wartime Red Cross awards suggest a Fabrikbesitzer sort to me. Remember that the "Red Cross" medals were given for contributions and "assistance to" and not necessarily working in hospitals.

[Ulsterman]

I disagree. Red Cross medalswere certainly awarded for pre war donations, but war time awards seem to have involved merit in a hospital somewhere, ESP. for the 2nd class award-and note the Johanniter. I will bet 50 Euros this is a Major ranked (+) Bavarian LazarettInspektor of some sort.

Edited April 2, 2007 by Ulsterman