Soviet VISOR CAPS

[RichieC]

Cool. Thanks for the info Richie. I pasted your comments here in case somebody else could learn from them.

I was under the misguided impression that the "leather" chin cord was for non-coms (Petty Officers?) and the braided cord (without leaves on the visor) for junior officers.

Thanks for straightening me out.

I could easily be wrong Eric. It happens quite often...

[Guest Rick Research]

I am unable to get good images of anything related to uniforms which cannot be laid flat on my scanner.

All the hat photos I have are not great, and taken 5 or so years ago with a borrowed camera (the kind that then used floppy disks... I still do NOT have Star Trek technology, and with one wall plug for everything to go into, fear the same result as that "Christmas Story" 1939 nostalgia movie.... )

All of these are probably already scattered around in the back pages, but here goes again.

White small top admiral, 11 Republics buttons:

and to continue the icecream seller theme, a small top ARMY white General, with the early M1955 brass and enamel cockade:

and for something completely different, a VERY ugly (to me, anyway) "flat" style M1943 armor or artillery officer's cap:

[Guest Rick Research]

Here's an example of the different results "technology" will have. These are of the SAME cap, M1954 KGB officer, dated 1954, which was updated with the M1955 cockade (brass and enamel-paint).

One taken by Igor, the other by me. Guess which is which?

I never could get good results from the floppy disk vacation camera of INSIDES. This cap's maker markss, by Igor:

M1947 police officer:

WW2 era Border Guards, with 2 piece star and "COPT 1" top quality marking under the sweatband. The sweat shield on top looks exactly like what a fat German in damp lederhosen would have left behind but if there were ever letters on it, they're long gone. This was my very first cap, in the "all for one price days" immediately After The Change and I shall not gloat. Much.

I've never even seen "1st Quality" marked on a GENERAL's cap like this M1940 army, 11 republics buttons. No quality marking:

Air Force technical/non flying M1949 full dress "zoot suit" officer's cap:

Unfortunately the "matching" Zoot suit I've got is SERVICE dress, not parade. Oh well.

[Guest Rick Research]

Mysterious brick red band, blueberry blue piped ? MGB/? KGB convoy? /? MVD officer's cap. Nnooooooooooooooobody can seem to agree on exactly what organization used this, or for how long. Maker dated 1956, so that was ONE year, anyway!

My mysteriously pumpkin-orange ( = ???) piped VOKhR officer's cap:

close up of the domed STEEL and separate red enamelled star/rifles cockade:

I mention the steel because per the "Kokardi" booklet by A. N. Kutsenko, that badge dates from 1982 (SIC !!!!) which was well into the Staybrite aluminum period. Enamel looks really crappy in this closeup but it's nice.

[Guest Rick Research]

And my only success in getting a good shot inside a hat-- the maker markings of said pumpkin-piped VOKhR cap:

Yup. 1959. And insignia's never been touched.

[Paul R]

I had no idea that there were so many variations!

[RichieC]

Congratulations Good Rick;

Outstanding quality examples! The Admiral's and Tankist's caps are especially lovely.

I am thrilled that this thread has been awakened...

Edited May 5, 2007 by RichieC

[Guest Rick Research]

Well, I assume everybody EXCEPT me can make good pictures of things larger than a flatbed scanner. Just don't ask for uniforms unless you want really nice closeups of shoulder boards, cuffs, and pockets.

Combined long ago vacation floppy disk camera shots of my M1943-47 civil police "Militia" Commissar 3rd Rank (Major General) cap, from a complete ankles-to-head uniform set long ago posted in the now Dark And Neglected Back Pages. 11 Republics buttons, but with Mutant cap cockade very definitely NOT regulation, but looks like it has never been altered. Dave Webster's seen one too--and that makes up the TWO that I've ever been aware of:

Particularly noteworthy for the named maker sweatshield. Not a great scan, but it's our familiarly prolific pals at the "Ts. Ye. P. Kombinat." Can NOT be earlier than 1943 OR later than 1947. If this was MADE with the "nobody will notice, who ever saw TWO Police Generals together at the same time? " in 1946, with outdated model buttons... still only ONE YEAR of wear before the whole system was scrapped for red piping.

I had NO clue what this was, back in them thar Early Days. NO reference books-- not even Tokar's much flawed volume. I was musing to the Formerly Soviet seller that it was, perhaps, aviation ground services, and he--being a clever and obliging salesman --cheerfully informed me that if I wanted to buy it as aviation ground services, then By Golly that was indeed what it was, and wasn't today my lucky day?

[RichieC]

Rick, the colour-combo seems A-OK accurate for Militia during the said time-frame. However, the cockarde seems to be "Все категории работниов Министерства связи" INW - COMMUNICATIONS or some derivation of such. And, if I recall correctly I believe that it mat be a POSTAL type. I'll double check though next time I run into one of the "Star" professors...

In any case, here are two more Railway orientated caps newly aquired:

[RichieC]

Post 1951 Railway Commandant with the "new" blue piping:

[Guest Rick Research]

The mutant transitional Militia that Dave Webster has/or has seen has it's cockade made out of a General's BUTTON, like mine. Presumably the regulation type was simply not available so they made it up as they went along-- after all, who was wever going to see TWO police generals at the same time?

Is there a date on the rank-striped (?) railways cap?

I've always thought it odd that the Soviets used the classic European PORTERS "red top" for their railways COMMAND personnel.

[RichieC]

The mutant transitional Militia that Dave Webster has/or has seen has it's cockade made out of a General's BUTTON, like mine. Presumably the regulation type was simply not available so they made it up as they went along-- after all, who was wever going to see TWO police generals at the same time?

Rick, I showed your cap to Valentine Voronov, and in his opinion it is simply (in his words) "новодел". He also made the attached image up to show what he thinks is a proper representation of a furzhaka belonging to a Militia Commissioner, order/regulation "НКВД СССР № 126 от 18.02.1943".

This high ranking stuff truly is not my forte, so if you wish, I can provide you with his contact information and you two can discuss it further. Also, I have had previous contact with Leonid Tokar and he has amended some of his twelve year old book errors and assumptions here:

http://www.wedomstwa-uniforma.narod.ru/milizia/mil43-58.html

I also have access to contact info for Tokar, so in any case, either I or Voronov can supply it to you if you wish also. These guys love to talk about this stuff!

As far as the cockarde goes; Denis Rodichev, Dave Webster, and myself all feel that it designates "communications" type personnel. BTW, Webster also feels it should be this one (image three), as that particular type is what his cap adorns. I think Voronov's opinion fell into his "новодел" remark... But as you have written earlier, the case may just be indeed "the regulation type was simply not available so they made it up as they went along". Besides, who was to dictate to such a high ranking gent that he may or may not use what ever he wanted to "dress his headdress" anyway(?)!

Kindly keep us informed if you have communications with these guys and what transpires.

Edited July 16, 2007 by RichieC

[RichieC]

Is there a date on the rank-striped (?) railways cap? I've always thought it odd that the Soviets used the classic European PORTERS "red top" for their railways COMMAND personnel.

No date Rick. It seems to me judging from the late type of small, spade shaped visor and the chinstrap buttons with prong attachments, that it dates from the early to mid 1950s.

I think the stripe around the band is pretty neat-o...

I'm not really up on Third Reich stuff, but didn't some German State Railways personnel use bright red visor caps also?

Edited July 16, 2007 by RichieC

[Guest Rick Research]

Thanks for the thoughts.

Absent anybody with one other than what they think was supposed to have been regulation

in the absence of any and all others

I've got one, and nobody else does.

[RichieC]

Very well put Rick...

I own a few pieces myself that our Russian associates insist are pure fantasy, "novodel" (новодел), or even "FUFLO"...

The truth will surface about any and all when one least expects it.

Still though, give Voronov an electronic "jingle", introduce yourself, and see what he has to say. It is all interesting in any case!

Edited July 16, 2007 by RichieC

[Daredevil]

i am not sure where the red piping came from for M1943 Militia generals....have had in a few Militia generals 1943-1947 and only the M1947 had the red piping. here is M1943 with the correct blue piping. same as ricks cap, but parade. cap badge is original to the cap, has not been altered or removed; i expected it to be the same as ricks service caps badge, but not...as stated, i think generals often wore what they wished, or what was available. i think ricks badge is correct textbook, but i think actually very rare; i think most wore the traditional M1940 generals badge. dd

[Daredevil]

here are a few shots of M1947 militia generals, with the red piping....i was dumb and did not shoot the hat with the tunic/belt (the belt is the only example i have ever seen of the gold M1947 militia generals belt); again, note the army generals M1940 style cap badge, not the "correct" militia cap badge (i owned an M1947 militia general many years ago when i was a collector and it had the textbook M47 cap badge; again, i think there was a difference between textbook and reality). The M47 service is just shown for reference ( and was not one of mine, but a friends). dd

[Daredevil]

M1947 cap for Militia general

[Guest Rick Research]

I agree-- the assertion of RED piping on M1943 generals' caps makes absolutely NO sense, since piping on any uniformed organizations generals' caps from 1943 on is always the color of PIPING/board underlay/triple breeches stripes.

I'm a St John 20:25 guy myself, so seeing IS believing.

So much can NOT be documented (such as a railways cap with Austro-Hungarian style rank braid on the band ) that hypothetical and theoretical has to take a back seat to what actually

IS.

There is an unfortunate but quite common hair trigger tendency out there to dismiss anything which is unknown-- when there is so much not yet documented that two generations after us will still be figuring things out.

And wow, what a variety of cockades on those Militia caps! So my inexplicably odd is... normal, almost!

That M1943 parade uniform is spectacular. The zigzag 1st type boards are

Use of the army M1940 cockade on the M1947 uniform is completely unexpected, but there again-- seeing is believing. Thanks for sharing that.

Thats is the sort of thing I used to sit on militaria show floors pouring out brown paper bags full of discarded RVK file photos looking for. When we DON'T have the regulations, what we have are the actual uniforms in our paws and always the hope of finding period photographic evidence for odd and unusual Real Life Wear. That's exactly the sort of thing I'm doing with my German Ribbon Bars In Wear section here on the Militaria Database side of this website.

I still can't figure out exactly why this M1947 Militia cap has a STAR with 16 republics center rather than the regulation Gerb, either. Sorry, I can't "do" uniforms.

Unfortunately my computer cannot handle Cyrillic websites, Richie. While I have a dictionary-reading knowledge of Russian, I couldn't handle "live conversation" in Russian.

[bobsavoie]

M1947 cap for Militia general

amazing !!!

[chrishope62]

I was pleased to find this site whilst researching a hat I have ! Apparently it is an authentic MVD officer’s dress cap made in 1986, & the insignia is also correct.

It is in reasonable condition for its age, and I was wondering if anyone on here would be interested in having it ?

[sftrooper86]

Greetings,

I have a few Russian caps. If there is anything you want to see closer just let me know. Some are for sale, just ask!

Enjoy,

Vince

and a couple Victory Parade Generals from WW2

[Paul R]

Wow.  Those are amazing.  Which are your most prized?

[sftrooper86]

1 minute ago, Paul R said:

Wow.  Those are amazing.  Which are your most prized?

Hi Paul,

Thank you. I was fortunate to have been able to visit Russia multiple times and bring all this stuff home in 1992/3. I was there with high ranking Moscow Police Officers who made this collection possible. I have lots more to show if anyone is interested. I have many favorites, perhaps the older they are the more I like them. Getting most all of the KGB & KGB Boarder Guard hats was quite a challenge and cost me my liver having to drink with them to gain their trust. That's a story in itself!

What are your current collecting interests?

My best,

Vince

[Paul R]

Hi Vince,

i have an interest in Soviet militaria, mainly 1941-1989.  I collect mainly award groups, but I’ve picked up some really nice uniforms and flags along the way. I do have a really nice 1980s KGB uniform. 

 

I am definitely interested in whatever you wish to feature and discuss.  

 

Paul.