Luftwaffe Retired Pilots Badge by Juncker

[Stan]

Here are photos of my Retired Pilots Badge by Juncker. Hope you like it.

Stan

[ERIC]

Hello Stan,

Your badge is definately not what I'm accustomed to seeing when it comes to a buntmetall Juncker Flyers Commemorative Badge. The leafing of the wreath is different as is the fletching of the eagle. The eagles talons are thinner on your example when compared to a known original, and the swastika arms are thicker on your example as well. The hinge, in my eyes, is suspect as well. I'm personally am not comfortable with this one. These are so rare any deviation from the norm is a red flag for me when it comes to these badges. Maybe someone else sees it differently.

ERIC

[Stan]

Eric,

Are you aware that Juncker produced two different types of these badges- one with very distinctive fletching of the feathers and one like mine? My type is shown in Doehle's book on page 115 (plus Forman, Klietmann, Nimmergut, Aislby and other books).

Pieter Verbruggen describes both types on another forum.

Stan

[ERIC]

No Stan, I was not aware of the type you've shown here. The only buntmetall style I know of is the following style -

Can anyone else post an example such as Stans? I'm always open to learn new things!

[Stan]

Eric,

Take a look at Robert McCarthy's "Collector's Guide Volume III". You'll see both versions side by side on p22.

Stan

[Guest WAR LORD]

An original but not as shown

Edited April 10, 2007 by WAR LORD

[Guest WAR LORD]

Another

[ERIC]

Chris,

Both of these styles are identified as original wartime badges? The badges you show have two distinctly different wreaths. Are they buntmetall or zinc examples? Thanks!

ERIC

[Stan]

Eric,

I don't know about Chris's badges but the Juncker piece I opened the topic with is buntmetal.

Stan

[J Temple-West]

I?m a little late at looking at this thread?.it has been a very busy Easter/school holiday.

I?ll start with the badges that Chris has posted if I may. Are they ?Juncker? marked? I would very much like to see the reverse as a series of fakes came out some years ago with and without cut-out legs and a badly done maker mark.

Comparison of the fake (Left) and one posted (Right).

[J Temple-West]

Stans? badge:

This of course could be a later pattern, but I?m with Eric on this one. If I were looking to buy an original by ?Juncker? I would go for the type shown by Eric and the one shown below. Better safe than sorry.

[Guest WAR LORD]

Thanks for John puting the two together. First the badge shown is zink unmarked. David Littlejohn purchased in 1952. The designe shows great differences, although at first glance they seem simolar.I would also go with John and Erik on the concernse of the other badge Stan has posted. I would only be comfortable with the zink form or that Erik has shown. I have a very clear photo of badge in wear which is the zink form.

As to the other I have shown this is infact tomback with no maker. Fantastic badge in detaial and finish. Question is it real?

[Scott]

Chris, can you post your "very clear picture of badge in wear"? I've only seen one or two fuzzy period pictures of this rare bird in wear.

Thanks!

Scott

[Stan]

So the consensus that we have is that the badges which Eric and John have posted are the early version and the zinc type which Chris has shown is the later version. Well this could be correct but as I have already stated, Doehle clearly shows my type of badge in the 1943 edition of his book.

As this badge was first instituted in 1935, I would like to see earlier editions of Doehle's book to establish which design of badge he showed then. My guess is that the version I have shown in Tomback is the original pre-war version which was later produced in zinc (see Christian von Tettinek's article in INFO 63, March 1991). When the type prefered by Eric and John was produced is the mystery and if this is the type we should all feel safest with, why is it omitted from so many reference works? The only books I have see it in is Niemann, McCarthy and Stephan. Forman, Nimmergut, Hartung, Husken and Klietmann shown my style.

Interesting!

Stan

[Stan]

I have now read an observation made by Pieter Verbruggen some years ago on a different forum concerning Juncker Buntmetal Commemorative Pilots Badges. In this report he states that the "First Type badge is a rather flat produced badge with less detail on the chest of the eagle and typical here is a "Dot" representing the eye. Also the eyebrows on this badge have an angled look. This type is shown in Detlev's first book on p518 and in Dr. Doehle's book on p115. No doubt on this badge concerning originality.

The Second Type (and I believe of a slightly later date of production) is a little thicker, with a much more detailed eagle chest and wreath. Here you have a more detailed eyebrow without the angle in the curvature. The originality is unquestionable".

Stan

[Richard Gordon]

To all,

Firstly, never had one of these and never really studied them as I had already decided I was never going to have one due to their rarity. So I'm shooting from the hip and giving an opinion based on observation of the pics supplied by Stan.

I go with it being original. I see details that are consistent with Juncker flight badges. I like the wear on the back and hand finished. The maker mark looks spot on and nothing I see points to a casting of an original.

So for what it's worth I give it

Rich

[Guest WAR LORD]

Here is the pictur from Dr K. THIS WAS TAKEN PRE 1957. This seems to be the zink form and could well be the actual one in David Littlejohns collection. The swastika is different to that shown on the one put up by Stan.

Edited April 12, 2007 by WAR LORD

[J Temple-West]

The plot thickens...

I don't think we can rely too much on the artist's impressions in the "Doehle" book.

From the ?Niemann? catalogue, however?

[Stan]

The plot thickens...

I don't think we can rely too much on the artist's impressions in the "Doehle" book.

From the ?Niemann? catalogue, however?

Chris,

Chris,

I also have Klietmann's book and the size of the swastika arms is the same (2mm).

John,

you are refering to Niemann's 2nd catalogue. Have you also seen the example shown in Niemanns 1st catalogue p518? - It's the same as mine.

Stan

[J Temple-West]

you are refering to Niemann's 2nd catalogue. Have you also seen the example shown in Niemanns 1st catalogue p518? - It's the same as mine.

But is it, Stan? I see a lot of differences in both die and finishing characteristics. I would also question the "Niemann, catalogue 1" maker mark.

Having so many variations appearing in reference works just brings me back to the badge I feel most comfortable with. I would buy no other.

[ERIC]

I don't think we can rely too much on the artist's impressions in the "Doehle" book.

I would not put too much reliance into the Doehle illustrations shown in his book either - look at the Pilot Badge on page 111 and the P/O Badge on page 113 and you'll see two badges whose eagles are very strange, especially the heads.

But is it, Stan? I see a lot of differences in both die and finishing characteristics.

Having so many variations appearing in reference works just brings me back to the badge I feel most comfortable with. I would buy no other.

I have to agree on both accounts Stan. With such a badge as rare as this, and the cost of said badge literally in the thousands, I simply would not feel "safe" with another style other than that shown by John and myself. I can possibly see a later war die for zinkers, so maybe two dies in all, but Christ, how many dies could they possibly have had for such an infrequently issued badge as the Flyers Commemorative? We're not talking Pilot or ROAG Badges here where tens of thousands were issued so multiple dies were eventually needed because of wear and tear.

ERIC

[Stan]

Eric,

IMO Juncker had only two different dies.

Well the gentlemen on this forum remain unconvinced. Fortunately another much longer thread (approx 8 pages I believe) exists on another forum. Search under "Commemorative Pilots Badge" and "Fliegererrinerungsabzeichen" will pop up. No dissenters there!

That's all from me.

Stan

[Rosenberg]

Interesting pictures are shown here! I was looking at one of these just like Stan has the other day. After looking at the pics here for a while I noticed something that made me wonder. When looking at all the pics shown here,even while looking differently from the obverse the badge shown by Eric and the one Skip shows share something in their reverse picture.I tried to encircle that on this pic here

Edited January 3, 2008 by Rosenberg

[Rosenberg]

Now could these similar looking "cuts" have been made in the same workshop? Could it be like they tried to let the eagle with its rock stand-out from the wreath by this process.Since both are of the same material the application of an identical process could be possible,couldn?t it?

[Gary B]

Hi,

Just to add my 2 cents....I have been told there are actually 3 Junckers versions; the 2 which Stan discusses (called by some flat chest and barrel chest version) and an aluminum version. A collection of Luft badges recently sold which had the supposed barrel chested version in it.

As a side note the spin casts of these are extremely good and have fooled many an advanced collector and dealer.

Gary B