Kriegsmarine Frontspange

[nesredep]

Hi

I would like to show you my Naval front spange. I believe that it might be the 1957 model .Does anyone have any opinions on this ?

Nesredep

[Paul R]

These can be very tricky... I would love to hear the opinions of the KM Specialists! I have seen several "field" made pieces.

Paul

[joetauchretter]

In my humble opinion , since this is NOT a field made piece I feel that this is a cast repro or a doctored 1957 badge . The details are very poor and the color looks incorrect with a wash of black chemical in the detail areas . On the back it looks like casting pock marks and why the date of 44 stamped on this badge twice ? And why Nantes Fr. ? Why not name the u-boat base that this was awarded at ? The dtailing around the anchor looks very poor to me and looks like a bad casting . This badge has been faked in the past and I do believe that this is one of them and should be passed up on , unless it is very cheap and you are looking for a hole filler .

Best Regards,

Joe

[nesredep]

In my humble opinion , since this is NOT a field made piece I feel that this is a cast repro or a doctored 1957 badge . The details are very poor and the color looks incorrect with a wash of black chemical in the detail areas . On the back it looks like casting pock marks and why the date of 44 stamped on this badge twice ? And why Nantes Fr. ? Why not name the u-boat base that this was awarded at ? The dtailing around the anchor looks very poor to me and looks like a bad casting . This badge has been faked in the past and I do believe that this is one of them and should be passed up on , unless it is very cheap and you are looking for a hole filler .

Best Regards,

Joe

Hi

Joetauchretter

Thank you for answering me, but i don`t think i can agree with your explanation.The reason why,is because an old Man in Norway got this medal during world War 2.

Nesredep

[joetauchretter]

Hi

Joetauchretter

Thank you for answering me, but i don`t think i can agree with your explanation.The reason why,is because an old Man in Norway got this medal during world War 2.

Nesredep

This is what I like about this site , different view points ! Maybe it is just the way it looks in this picture but what I really did not like was just below where the name and date 1944 there looks like there is a depression like someone ground away the original maker name . In this area the color looks different , maybe this is just the way the colors look on my computer screen ? As this is a very late war type of badge few , if any were produced and the ones that you do find are home made badges to go with their award document . This is too good looking to be a make shift , home made badge , in my humble opinion !.

Best Regards,

Joe

[Jan Arne S]

Hi Nesredep !

Why do You beleive it could be a 1957 award , if a Old Man got it during the 2WW ????

( I believe that it might be the 1957 model ) !!!

( The reason why,is because an old Man in Norway got this medal during world War 2 )

Jan Arne

[nesredep]

Hi

I think it`s an 1957 medal , because I have too little knowledge about it !

When we discuss items from WW 2 and have different opinions , I think it`s important with documentation in original writings. Without it`s all just speculations and personal opinions ! .

Nesredep

[Gordon Williamson]

The authorised design for the Marine Frontspange featured a central device containing an anchor and crossed swords within an anchor chain border, topped with an eagle and swastika. It was never put into volume production though some test shots were made and a handful exist in collections. A friend of mine in Germany has one which I have a small photo of somewhere and will post if I can find it.

This is a bit like the Lappland shield in many ways, with guys who were awarded the piece "on-paper" but unable to obtain the actual decoration, making up their own locally (on board ship usually). I believe, like the Lappland again, that these were only made after the war had actually ended, hence the deliberate omission of the swastika.

Those made at the time were extremely crude, like those shown below. When the new -form awards were made complying to the "Ordens-Gesetz" of 1957, they simply carried on the non-controversial motif of the anchor for the centre. Any of the better made designs like the one in this thread are from much later postwar period,

[Guest WAR LORD]

It is interesting to note that there is a picture of this award being worn in Jan 1946. So how could this award be produced and worn at the time? I concure with Gorden on the point that some pieces were produced. The original designe is well documented and exists. The normal form is equally rare but was produced before the end of the war.

[nesredep]

It is interesting to note that there is a picture of this award being worn in Jan 1946. So how could this award be produced and worn at the time? I concure with Gorden on the point that some pieces were produced. The original designe is well documented and exists. The normal form is equally rare but was produced before the end of the war.

Hi

WAR LORD

Can you please show the picture ( Foto ) of this award worn in jan 1946.

Nesredep

[nesredep]

Hello

Gentleman`s

Thank you very much for comment`s .I Want to shov You a picture from my old German book. Miniaturorden des

111.Reichs. It looks like to bee the same Naval Front Spange.

Nesredep

[Gordon Williamson]

If this is from the small book by Messing, like all books it has some mistakes. There are other items in it that are also NOT from the Third Reich period, but are "57" items, like the metal miniatures of the Kurland , Kreta cuffbands etc.

Hello

Gentleman`s

Thank you very much for comment`s .I Want to shov You a picture from my old German book. Miniaturorden des

111.Reichs. It looks like to bee the same Naval Front Spange.

Nesredep

[nesredep]

If this is from the small book by Messing, like all books it has some mistakes. There are other items in it that are also NOT from the Third Reich period, but are "57" items, like the metal miniatures of the Kurland , Kreta cuffbands etc.

Hello

Gordon

Authors page is missing.

nesredep

[nesredep]

Hello

This medals is from the Book, Norske krigsfrivillige p? Tysk side Nr.1, UTMERKELSER ( Medals ), Brenden/ Schei.

Nesredep

[nesredep]

Hello

This medals is from the Book, Norske krigsfrivillige p? Tysk side Nr.1, UTMERKELSER ( Medals ), Brenden/ Schei.

Nesredep

URKUNDE for the medals.Is from the same book.

Nesredep

[nesredep]

Hello

Sorry , here are the URKUNDE.

Nesredep

[nesredep]

Hello

The picture is from the book: Die Kriegsmarine Uniforms & Traditions , John R Angolia and Adolf Schlicht.

Do all books about medals have a lot of mistaks according to the information in them ?.

Nesredep

[John R]

Most photos of the badge in wear, including the Jan 46 photo, are of Prinz Eugen crewmen who were authorized to wear the device by the US Navy since there was no political insignia on the badge. Prinz Eugen crewmen who were part of the mixed US-German crew which sailed her to the US were also allowed to wear the muetzenband (tally) which said Prinz Eugen.

Most probably the device was made in Prinz Eugen or in the shipyard where Prinz Eugen was fitted out and repaired for her voyage to the US after the war ended. John

[nesredep]

Hello

John Robinson

Thanks for comments.

Please show me the 46 pics.

Nesredep

[Gordon Williamson]

Do all books about medals have a lot of mistaks according to the information in them ?.

No book is perfect. They reflect the best known information at the time they were written. I have never seen a book yet which wasn't later found to contain some errors.

The clasp shown in "Die Kriegsmarine" is a 1957 model. Some of the cap tally ribbons listed in that book as Kriegsmarine are also postwar Bundesmarine.

[John R]

This photo is obviously of a Prinz Eugen crewman. Note, the national insignia over the right breast is missing as is the national insignia on the cap. Only the marine frontspange on the tunic and the cap tally on the cap. Since the tally was issued on Jan 5, 1946 by the German Officer in Charge, the photo had to be after that. Note, the ship still had its partial German crew aboard when she arrived in San Diego, California on May 1, 1946 at which point the German crew was discharged.

In addition, the German crew and US crew became very friendly during the transit as is the nature of sailors which resulted in exchanges of many personal items. The ship's stores were certainly "liberated" of their contents by both crews for this purpose of finding small gifts, etc---sleeve insignia, cap badges, tallies, the rest. Afterall, both crews knew Prinz Eugen was fated for an atomic bomb in the Pacific, no reason to let at the time only keepsake items go to the bottom.

This is the only photo I have seen with the marine frontspange from Prinz Eugen.

John

Edited May 14, 2007 by John Robinson

[John R]

Other image of the US-German relationship for this ship. I own the cap tally in this image. Not sure if there is something on the tunic of the German over the left breast. Hard to tell since the ends of the tally are covering it.

This photo must be either Wilhelmshaven, or one of several possibilities in the US, not sure what ship that is in the background.

John

Edited May 14, 2007 by John Robinson

[John R]

Expanded image of same photo (my collection). John

[nesredep]

This photo is obviously of a Prinz Eugen crewman. Note, the national insignia over the right breast is missing as is the national insignia on the cap. Only the marine frontspange on the tunic and the cap tally on the cap. Since the tally was issued on Jan 5, 1946 by the German Officer in Charge, the photo had to be after that. Note, the ship still had its partial German crew aboard when she arrived in San Diego, California on May 1, 1946 at which point the German crew was discharged.

In addition, the German crew and US crew became very friendly during the transit as is the nature of sailors which resulted in exchanges of many personal items. The ship's stores were certainly "liberated" of their contents by both crews for this purpose of finding small gifts, etc---sleeve insignia, cap badges, tallies, the rest. Afterall, both crews knew Prinz Eugen was fated for an atomic bomb in the Pacific, no reason to let at the time only keepsake items go to the bottom.

This is the only photo I have seen with the marine frontspange from Prinz Eugen.

John

Hello

Some people think that my medal,identical to the one in the photo, is a 1957-medals. This photo is from the year 1946 ?????.

Nesredep

[John R]

Hello

Some people think that my medal,identical to the one in the photo, is a 1957-medals. This photo is from the year 1946 ?????.

Nesredep

I do not know the date of the photo, but this young man certainly was not photographed in 1957. My guess, since it seems to have a German photographer on the bottom right as you view the photo, is that it was taken either prior to mid-Jan 1946 while the ship was still in Wilhelmshaven and prior to sailing to the US, or, soon after this sailor returned to Germany. In either case, 1946. If the photograph was taken in the US for some reason and had a German sounding photographer, still 1946.

The uniform, youth of the sailor, the wearing of the tally and the frontspange all indicate to me, without a doubt, that it was taken in 1946.

I can only offer my opinion that the frontspange (not medal) was made aboard Prinz Eugen or in the yards at Wilhelmshaven in 1946.

It does appear to match your man's frontspange and from that I can only conclude that yours too was made soon after the war ended. I can't explain the stamps on the reverse though. Highly unlikely the badge was made during Nov 1944 when instituted, but, it could be a later stamp pre-dated for the date of entitlement or award institution.

Personally, I have no problem with your frontspange. If you like it too, that is all you need.

John

Edited May 14, 2007 by John Robinson