HJ Diamond

[Tom Y]

This came with a lot I just acquired. It's silk and very well made but I have no idea what it's for. It looks almost like a cigarette silk. Could someone please elucidate?

[Snoopy]

Hello

I'm no expert, but I think it's for a sports shirt.

Snoopy

Edited June 2, 2007 by Snoopy

[Colin Davie]

Worn on the front of HJ sports shirts, on the left sleeve of BDM jackets and often found on small HJ flags and pennants.

C

Edited June 3, 2007 by Colin Davie

[Tom Y]

Thanks, guys. My knowledge of TR doesn't go much beyond the basics so I'm always glad for any help

[Bob Coleman]

your article is the sleeve insignia for the BDM jacket. The items for the pennants and sports shirts are of a different size and construction.

[Tom Y]

your article is the sleeve insignia for the BDM jacket. The items for the pennants and sports shirts are of a different size and construction.

Thanks, Bob

[Colin Davie]

So Bob you have never seen these on sport shirts too? I have seen these cloth badges on pennants, this size, this actual type of badge. IMO the pennants were original.

C

[Colin Davie]

.. of note please notice the DJ sports badge cloth version on the shirt of the boy throwing the knife.

Photo the property of Robert Noss who kindly shared it a few threads below this one.

C

[Colin Davie]

Detail, as best as I could get it.

C

[Bob Coleman]

THE SPORT SHIRT DIAMONDS APPEAR TO BE SLIGHTLY LARGER THAN THE BDM SLEEVE INSIGNIA.

COULD BE THE SAME SIZE. POSSIBLY, THE SMALLER VERSION WAS ALSO USED ON THE ATHLETIC SHIRTS AT TIME.

ONE THING FOR CERTAIN WITH 3RD REICH MATERIAL IS THAT NOT EVERYTHING WAS DONE ACCORDING TO REGULATION.

[Colin Davie]

The most interesting photo (for me anyway) in regard HJ sports shirt Raute. Same badge???? I am looking forward to checking this out.

Please view Roberts photos again (and again, and again) as the quality is better than I have presented.

Photo property of Robert Noss, kindly shared in his own thread below this one.

C

[Colin Davie]

Detail, as best I could.

C

[XEN]

I have a few of these diamonds (all in used condition). No two are the same size but they all average out at 3 1/2" to 3 3/4" and match the example posted by Tom Y. This size of diamond was used on both the BDM-jacket and the sports shirt. One of the diamonds came from a BDM member and was removed (by her) from the sports shirt she wore whilst taking part in the Breslau games in 1938. I'll dig through the photos and post a couple later if required but the quality isn't too good. In the meantime though I have attached a scan of the front page of 'Unsere Fahne' from 1939. If you mentally transport the patch from the middle girl's chest onto her arm I think this shows that the patches are the same size.

It would be nice to see this smaller patch with different construction. I haven't seen one so a period photo would be a great help.

Quick edit as I forgot the picture first time around.

Edited July 2, 2007 by XEN

[XEN]

Just a quick correction/addition to my last post:

I said: "It would be nice to see this smaller patch with different construction. I haven't seen one so a period photo would be a great help"

What I actually meant was period evidence for the existence of a special patch for the sports shirt as mentioned in post #5 above. It would be very useful to see such evidence as I am presently unaware of these patches. I hope that makes things clearer

Quick edit to add another picture which shows the patch on a sports shirt. I have drawn two lines as you can see. With the picture in hand the dimension for both is 19mm therefore both items are the same size give or take a millimetre or two. If I measure my own hand across the same point as shown on the picture it comes out at 93mm or 3.7" (my girlfriend's hand came out at 90mm). This matches exactly with the patch shown by Tom Y . Given that the Tom's patch is the same size and of the same construction as that shown in the picture here I think we can safely say that they are one and the same. So, the patch shown was worn on sports shirts but... in order to establish whether this patch was worn on both the sports shirt AND the BDM-Jacket (which I believe) we need someone with an authentic BDM-jacket with the patch still in situ. I don't collect uniforms so it would be really useful if someone who does could post the dimensions of any in situ patches they have. Let's see if we can clear this one up.

Cheers, XEN

Edited July 3, 2007 by XEN

[Colin Davie]

Why are we talking about wether or not these sports badges are same on HJ shirts and BDM jackets?

There is no need, the discussion is laughable. Page 2 of RJF's Uniformen der H.J. 1933 edition states very clearly "Sport=Abzeichen H.J.und Armel=Abzeich. B.D.M. und Jungmadel" it pictures the insignia and it's dimentions very clearly. Page 15 of the same publication but 1934 edition shows illustrations of both Male and Female wearing them and showing/naming it the same badge, but includes more importantly that the insignia is also used on the left arm of the male waterproof jacket, which is what I think the officer in Roberts photo might be wearing.

It is being contradicted for the most basic of things that stopped me from commenting on other peoples items a couple of years back, I start again and see that sadly nothings changed.. I just can't be bothered with it.

C

Edited July 4, 2007 by Colin Davie

[Colin Davie]

Trampped along this weary road often enough to know what comes next.. "prove it". So here you are. Quick edit to point out first pic from 1933 edition, bottom one from 1934 edition, arm of waterproof top from 1934 edition.

C

Edited July 4, 2007 by Colin Davie

[Colin Davie]

And finally something that might have been worth talking about.. waterproof jacket left sleeve, ignore the insignia at the bottom.

C.

[Tiger-pie]

It is being contradicted for the most basic of things that stopped me from commenting on other peoples items a couple of years back, I start again and see that sadly nothings changed.. I just can't be bothered with it.

C

Well Colin, what you have to remember is that there are always new members coming through, and that there is a great deal of mis-information getting about, usually by forum "experts". I have seen a lot of it on Third Reich forums over the last few years, and it has probably being going on long before that.

With so many sources of information getting around, and not all of them reliable, it is good that you have gone back to the source, which can hardly be argued with.

What collectors also need to keep in mind is that many of Germany's industries were "cottage" based i.e. there was no vast production lines that churned out exact copies, so one item could or would be farmed out to several makers, thus you get variations on the same theme.

Regards;

Johnsy

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gents,

So its not possible to find a H.J. badge or any other badge / insignia mis-applied to an item of clothing??

And everything published back in 1933 is correct??

Funny, there are even mistakes made in following official regulations, as period pictures have shown.

In my honest opinion there is nothing wrong with encouraging healthy honest debate amongst forum members.

Kevin in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

Recently this picture was offered for sale on Ebay, surprisingly the HJ badge has been applied to the swimming cap.

Kevin in Deva

[Colin Davie]

Why not? swimming is a sport, you also spot it on sports shorts. Sports abzeichen = sports badge/insignia.

I admit there is a possibility that the HJ overlords official 1933 book might be mistaken and yes DOH... even the idiots went and made the same mistake again in 1934.

My mistake, like XEN then I will await the pic of the correct sport shirt insignia, that I might learn.

C

[XEN]

My apologies Colin if my comments came across as being some kind of disagreement about these patches. It isn't and can't be as I totally agree with you!

I have never seen the special patch mentioned by Bob Coleman in post #5 and that is what my comments and the above photos are about. I'm just saying that it would be helpful if he showed one in wear in a period photo. I didn't like having to pussy-foot around the issue but experience has shown me that the direct approach isn't always the best option in online discussions..

I have a reference somewhere for the bathing cap shown by Kev above. I'll try and find it now.

[Colin Davie]

I don't like to pussyfoot around either, I find though that if you use the correct period proof that you are correct and the other option wrong you can shoot from the hip real good and it's pretty hard to be chastised.

XEN, I know you know that I know you know what a HJ sports shirt badge looks like and I know that you know that I know that you know you have asked Bob for a period photo that does'nt exist, because there is no other badge.

C

[Kev in Deva]

Gentlemen,

the last time I checked this was still the Gentlemens Military Interest Club Forum and if any member wants to add his or her tuppence worth they are free to do so, without having to put up with any snide and sarcastic remarks.

While members who can bring information to the Forum are very welcome, I am sure they can manage to do it without developing a "holier than thou" attitude.

We are living all over the Globe and we do not all have access to the same books and catalogs, thats why we exsist as a forum to share information and even make speculations.

And yes we will often ask stupid questions and make incorrect comments thats human nature.

Going back to the start of this thread "Tom Y" asked what the item was for, and we are now aware that the item was utilised on different apparel and even head gear of the HJ.

Any more pictures of the actual item in wear would be appriceated.I would also caution against trying to judge size in pictures buy rule of thumb of finger, not a very precise and acurate way of taking measurements.

Again any member with these items in there collection might measure them and post the details, of course it must be taken into account any shrinkage from wash and wear on a used item.

Kevin in Deva.

[Paul R]

Gentlemen,

the last time I checked this was still the Gentlemens Military Interest Club Forum and if any member wants to add his or her tuppence worth they are free to do so, without having to put up with any snide and sarcastic remarks

Well said Kevin! After all, we are here to learn from one another regarding a hobby that we all enjoy. Lets keep it pleasant.