Stogieman Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 A nice pair of Carte de Visites. First up a W?rttemburger with a very impressive rack of awards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted August 27, 2005 Author Share Posted August 27, 2005 ....... and a nice Prussian General! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hunter Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 OK, Rick, at what point does a neck order become a belly button order? ...and just out of curiosity what are the mechanics of suspending multiple neck orders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted August 27, 2005 Share Posted August 27, 2005 That is an extremly good question! Simply stuffing neck grade Orders in through button spaces would lead to the hideous possibility of one snagging and yanking out, or dropping out under its own weight, taking all the others along in a hideously expensive cascade of crunched enamel.I have never had any opportunity to inspect a General's tunic of that far back, but I suspect they were buttoned into the tunic lining with shorter lengths of ribbons, just the same way as a single one at the throat sometimes was.As for belly button Orders... when they got that far South, they stopped!!! EXCELLENT news in from our unable to internet comrade on active duty in the Balkans Daniel, who has IDENTIFIED said General asCharakterisiert Generalleutnant aD (1895) Ernst Johann Hermann von Knappe (1839-1902), here circa 1895--note pip on shoulder board-- as freshly retired Commander of the Eisenbahn Brigade, no "25" oakleaves on his 1870 EK2 yet. Daniel says von Knappe didn't have the stars to his Prussian Crown Order 2nd and the Albert in 1894, so these were presumably on retirement.He is, in fact, NOT wearing additional Commander grade Orders for lack of space, from W?rttemberg, Italy, and Russia!!! Note that the simple 4 MEDAL BAR is a prime example of why when we see a Prussian XXV+ like this with NO Orders, we can usually assume the medal bar grade Orders have "migrated" upward. If anyone has the Autengruber volume on pre-WW1 Saxon awards that will show the DATE of von Knappe's STAR (SA2a) to his earlier Albert Order-Commander (SA2b) that will date this photo quite nicely.I'm not sure whether the W?rttemberger (and note the precedence of HIS awards!!! ) is a medical colonel, or something else. I couldn't "read" his boards, and the "General Staff" type collar Litzen may be something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 I have a couple of gaps in my nineteenth cantury stuff so can not at this time ascertain General Knappe's date of promotion to Oberstlieutenant (presumably in 1886) or Generalmajor (1892?). He was a long serving member of the railway branch of the Prussian Army engineer branch originally commissioned in the late fifties. Commander of Pionier-Bataillon Nr. 3 from 14 Nov 1878 to 16 Nov 1880, he was the first commander of the Eisenbahn-Brigade when formed in March 1890 having previously commanded the regiment. He was given acting command of the Eisenbahn-Regiment on the 18 Sep 1886 which was made permanent on 13 Dec 1887. Born on 12 Sep 1839 he died on 12 May 1902.Sec. Lieut.: 2.5.57Prem. Lieut.: 1.12.63Hauptmann: 7.7.70Major: 14.1.79 XOberst: 13.12.88 AHe retired on the 22nd of January 1895 and was promoted to charakterisierter Generallieutenant z.D. the same day (see below).RegardsGlenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Rick,I don't have the Autengruber volume on pre-WW1 Saxon awards but can confirm that Generallieutenant z.D. Knappe's permission to wear the Komthurkreuz erster Klasse des K?niglich S?chsischen Albrechts-Ordens was gazetted in the 13 April 1895 edition of the Milit?r-Wochenblatt. Presumably the General was also ennobled after his retirement from active service?RegardsGlenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 All from an anonymous photo! Looks like he got his "von" after retirement as a/THE? long term military railways leader-- which may interest the guys previously into the whole awards and/or ennoblement thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted August 29, 2005 Author Share Posted August 29, 2005 .... and this just goes to show you the value of joint, world-wide research as well as this forum! very cool and much thanks to Daniel, Glenn & Rick for putting a name on this face! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Rick,I don't think the W?rttemberger is a medical man - wrong type of Litzen. Not Grenadier 119 or 123 either. It looks more like the pattern worn by staff officers or Fl?geladjutants (but no aiguillette makes me think he is not a Fl?geladjutant) or even engineer types. What is the top neck decoration?RegardsGlenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Ayuh, that's why I was waffling: there seems to be SOMETHING between his pips, but I can't tell what, in profile.Top is W?rttemberg Friedrich Order- Commander (WF2b in Prussian listing, but funny little glyph in Wtbg versions of home awards)thenBavarian BMV2bover?EK2What I found odd is he is wearing his PRUSSIAN awards first on the medal bar-- EK 1870 of course, but then Red Eagle 3rd (no bow, so a direct award in that class), Crown 3rd and inly THEN his home state awardsWtbg Crown Order-Knight "with lions" peacetime ahead of an 1870"WF3aX" Friedrich Knight-1st with Swords!He was a native W?rttemberger, since that's their XXV ahead of the campaign medals and what I assume is a Wtbg Jubilee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Thanks Rick,I think the photgraph probably dates from around 1893 to the mid/late nineties. Nobody matches in my copy of the 1895 which makes me think it might be someone who made general with some additional awards by 1895. The ?EK2 is pretty thin on the ground in that year.RegardsGlenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian von Etzel Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 I have to say this is an example of a photo-op and not the 'normal' show of medals on this gentleman. I doubt beyond the RAO at this point in time he wore any of the other 'lose' items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted September 1, 2005 Share Posted September 1, 2005 The arrival of an 1894 Rang- und Quartierliste now gives me the General's Patent as a Generalmajor: 20.10.91 C.RegardsGlenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Andy Baus sent me an email with additional information on Knappe and has also identified the W?rttemberg officer Andy for some reason cannot manage to log in from his home computer. From Andy:Knappe received the Komtur Kreuz 1. Kl on 21.01.1895, 2. Kl in 1888 (Autengruber does not give the day or month)His Patent as an Oberstlt. is 12-06-86 EThe W?rttemberger is Hermann Frhr. von Bilfinger (01.03.1843-14.03.1919) As I looked at the picture and read the other comments, it made sense to me that he must have been kommandiert to the Prussian Army, hence his Prussian awards ahead of his native awards. I thumbed through the 1892 W?rttemberg Rangliste and there I saw von Bilfinger (he was granted the Freiherr title on 25.02.1902) listed as Chief of the General Staff of V. AK (22.05.1889-29.03.1892) and carried ? la suite of the W?rttemberg General Staff. The awards listed were PRAO3 PKrO3 EK2 BMV3a SA2b WMV3 WK3a WF3a WMN1 ?EK2 RA3 and the last, not in the Prussian Rangliste, was the w?rtt. Jubil?ums Medaillle! This photo is quite a find, as v. Bilfinger later commanded IR 28, 32. and 52. Inf. Brig., served as a diensttuender w?rtt. Fl?geladj. and then General Adjutant, as well as carried ?.l.s. Inf. R. 121, reaching the rank of Gen.d.Inf. I can provide additional details for anyone who is interested.Thanks again Andy!RegardsGlenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Somebody similar but NOT Bilfinger--the photo fellow has no WMV3 and his WF3a here has Xs from 1870/71, not a peacetime one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Looks like he got his "von" after retirement as a/THE? long term military railways leader-- which may interest the guys previously into the whole awards and/or ennoblement thread. Found General Knappe's date of ennoblement at last. The General was awarded hereditary nobility on the 1st of January 1900 along with several other senior officers including Admiral von Koester.RegardsGlenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted August 28, 2006 Share Posted August 28, 2006 Did I unterstand right, the W?rttemberger is not yet identified? May we please get a close up of his medal bar? The last thing seems to be an Baden award on the typical baden "B?gel?se" - might be the clue in W?rttemberg army? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freiherr Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 http://www.bilfinger-ahnen.de/genealogy/showmedia.php?&mediaID=30&medialinkID=32&page=1&PHPSESSID=ucme4eqnulrhq8mf23oclmcff2 These are 3 nice pictures of v Bilfinger from the family website here. Not everyhting is working but you can copy the pictures and view them using a photo editor. Cheers Elwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I had forgotten this thread but just recently identified the Württemberg Colonel: Oberst Karl von Schill Inspekteur der 3. Ingenieur-Inspektion 1895-1896. Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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