My latest Bavarian M.V.O. Kreuz, I Class with Crown.

[militaria0815]

Oh, very interesting indeed! You do not trust members who "have just joined or posted very little on the forum". If this is your way of thinking, well, this is your point of view but not in the sense of a forum. I myself have been collecting Bavarian orders and medals for 30 years and I have had access to huge collections and to the knowledge of these collectors.

Anyway, if you believe your 1st class w crown X is an original, keep on believing it until you will see the upcoming reference book which will be edited by the end of 2008. Hopefully you have heard about this author, this will be his 1st book, maybe he is not trustable in your eyes.

Btw your 1st class w crown X is a well known fake made of a lower grade, this is what hundreds of WW1 collectors all over the world have known for a long wile!! Try to sell it and you will pick a lot of laughers!

Edited August 14, 2007 by militaria0815

[Josef Rietveld]

Gentleman please calm down. it's just medals.

sascha, I HAD, i recently sold my complete small mvk-collection with a little tear in my eyes

BTW i was never an expert mit mvk's like others you mentioned only an interested apprentice

haynau

Edited August 14, 2007 by haynau

[Alex K]

Oh, very interesting indeed! You do not trust members who "have just joined or posted very little on the forum". If this is your way of thinking, well, this is your point of view but not in the sense of a forum. I myself have been collecting Bavarian orders and medals for 30 years and I have had access to huge collections and to the knowledge of these collectors.

Anyway, if you believe your 1st class w crown X is an original, keep on believing it until you will see the upcoming reference book which will be edited by the end of 2008. Hopefully you have heard about this author, this will be his 1st book, maybe he is not trustable in your eyes.

Btw your 1st class w crown X is a well known fake made of a lower grade, this is what hundreds of WW1 collectors all over the world have known for a long wile!! Try to sell it and you will pick a lot of laughers!

Edit So if it's not a stupid question , How do you make a Ist class from a 3rd class? It looked good enough to fool a novice like me

regards

Alex

Edited August 14, 2007 by Alex K

[Kev in Deva]

Oh, very interesting indeed! You do not trust members who "have just joined or posted very little on the forum". If this is your way of thinking, well, this is your point of view but not in the sense of a forum. I myself have been collecting Bavarian orders and medals for 30 years and I have had access to huge collections and to the knowledge of these collectors.

Anyway, if you believe your 1st class w crown X is an original, keep on believing it until you will see the upcoming reference book which will be edited by the end of 2008. Hopefully you have heard about this author, this will be his 1st book, maybe he is not trustable in your eyes.

Btw your 1st class w crown X is a well known fake made of a lower grade, this is what hundreds of WW1 collectors all over the world have known for a long wile!! Try to sell it and you will pick a lot of laughers!

Dear Sir, (militaria0815)

It seems you have a problem over anybody who disagrees with you! but, if you read carefully what I posted I never used the word "trust" anywhere in my post, all I am asking for, is that posters prove what they claim.

With regards:

Btw your 1st class w crown X is a well known fake made of a lower grade, this is what hundreds of WW1 collectors all over the world have known for a long wile!! Try to sell it and you will pick a lot of laughers!

Would you care to state where your information comes from? as "well known" would indicate it has been documented.

I do not see why I should accept a statement posted on a forum just because you or any other person says so, which is surely my right?

Did you even attempt to offer any reasons for your conclusions, cite any examples including pictures to back up your claims?? Niether have I stated that I will attempt to sell the item on, please do not presume to judge me by your own standards.

So your idea of a Forum is: where we all sit and listen un-questioningly to your expertise??

As our American friends say "Put up or Shut up" in other words give some proof of your claims.

Until I see proof, then I will reserve the right to believe what I want to believe, which is my democratic right.

Mfg Kevin in Deva.

- - - - - - - - - - - - * * * * * * * * * * * - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hallo Haynau,

I am not upset or feel any particular need to calm down, I just asked "people" who make statements to offer some proof, all we have here are claims being made, with no evidence, and because somebody claims:

I myself have been collecting Bavarian orders and medals for 30 years and I have had access to huge collections and to the knowledge of these collectors.

As my old Irish Aunt used to say "Self-praise is no praise!"

Kevin in Deva.

Edited August 14, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[militaria0815]

I do not see why I should accept a statement posted on a forum just because you or any other person says so, which is surely my right?

You better should, believe me! Because I AM AN EXPERT in Bavarian items as other guys know. Sorry! (Good saying from your good old aunt but not always appropriable!!).

AND, believe it or not, I KNOW THE GUY who makes most of these FAKES in person!

Edited August 14, 2007 by militaria0815

[Bernd D]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2007/post-950-1187028023.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2007/post-950-1187028063.jpg

This one can be classed as a rareity,

its an original Bavarian MVO Cross without swords

Kevin in Deva

Sorry for my stupid question but the picture is not so good. What should it be, a 2. class (1905) or a 3. class (1913) without swords?

In case it should be a 2. class (silver) I can post a picture of a real one.

In case it should be a 3. class without swords, congratulation!!! You are one out of a million other collectors who are owning the only one which ever was awarded.

Please excuse my sarcasm.

Bernd

[Kev in Deva]

You better should, believe me! Because I AM AN EXPERT in Bavarian items as other guys know. Sorry!

BTW congrats, a great Bavarian collection!

I AM AN EXPERT

Sarcasim is the Lowest form of Wit!!

Kevin in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Bern d

To whom in particular is your question addressed, me or the "experts" ??

Perhaps the "experts" would care to post some examples of the original pieces in there collection,

as examples of the real 100% original items

Kevin in Deva

Edited August 14, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[saschaw]

I don't know if there has ever been a book published by now, but there'll come one out next year, and many might wonder about their collections. I recently had two Bavarian MVK Ist class and I though they were real, but they were "upgraded" 3rd classes, as your's are unfortunally. Honestly, they looked better than yours. The enemal's quality of those was really good, look at (ex) haynau's and compare with yours.

As my old Irish Aunt used to say "Self-praise is no praise!"

So then I praise him. I do not know any who is more experienced with Bavarian orders and decorations than militaria0815.

@0815:

einfach ruhig bleiben, nich aufregen deswegen ...

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo saschaw

As I have said in my previous posts on this thread, I need to see proof,

then and only then, will I believe, I do not accept say-so.

mfg Kevin in Deva.

[saschaw]

As I have said in my previous posts on this thread, I need to see proof, then and only then, will I believe, I do not accept say-so.

Sure, but what "proofs" do you expect? Those who will be published for the first time next year? Don't think you'll get these now ...

[Kev in Deva]

Are we to believe there is no information available about B.M.V.O. Cross FAKES and REPRODUCTIONS

until the publication of this wonderful bavarian M.V.O. Bible currrently being prepared for publication??

After all the words:

1st class w crown X is a well known fake

have been used, so I must ask,

well known to whom and for how long??

The words "Well known" seems to imply more than one person has knowledge of these!

Has any information with regards these fake B.M.V.O. Crosses been posted anywhere in the world?? either on the net or

in paper publication??

Or has the knowledge been conceled to allow the unscrupuless to get rid of the fake pieces in their collections first??

Kevin in Deva

[militaria0815]

Sarcasim is the Lowest form of Wit!!

Kevin in Deva

Congrats, you are the only one who thinks this is sarcasm! And the only one who says your MVK is an original.

[Kev in Deva]

Again you mis-read what I posted, I never stated anywhere in my posts that my item is original

I asked for you to offer proof, (either in documented writing or with pictures) to back up your claims

that my items are FAKE.

I am sorry if you have a problem understanding my English.

Kevin in Deva

[militaria0815]

I am able to understand your English as well as your good old aunt was able to understand it!

And I would bet that you will get not a single pic of any Bavarian medal here in this forum. Wait til next year and buy "the Bible" then you'll find out all answers to your quests for sure. Btw the author will be in Reichertshofen. Give him fun for some hours and show him your 1st class MVK, even better, let him make a scan of the medal and it will appear in the book (chapter "poor fakes").

Therewith this argument is ended now for my part.

Best greetings from clawfinger!!!

saschaw: Ist halt schwer bei soviel Ignaranz.

Edited August 14, 2007 by militaria0815

[Franken75]

Even more so when they have just joined or posted very little on the forum.

Believe me I don`t want to do more posts after this friendly welcome.

I think it`s not Gentleman like to get a salutation like " Dear Sir "

Let me say with the Words from old Fritz:

Suum Cuique

Edited August 14, 2007 by Franken75

[Kev in Deva]

Dear Sir

you might well say I am ignorant

Ist halt schwer bei soviel Ignaranz.

But to post a comment in German really shows who here is ignorant.

The language of this forum is English.

Kevin in Deva.

[Kev in Deva]

Even more so when they have just joined or posted very little on the forum.

Believe me I don`t want to do more posts after this friendly welcome.

I think it`s not Gentleman like to get a salutation like " Dear Sir "

Let me say with the Words from old Fritz:

Suum Cuique

Hallo Franken75,

"Dear Sir" is a standard salutation, in the English language, and I was taught to use this form of address

when replying to a person. (unless you are of the female gender then I would use, "Dear Madam" or "Dear Miss".

mfg. Kevin in Deva.

Edited August 14, 2007 by Kev in Deva

[Franken75]

Hallo Franken75,

"Dear Sir" is a standard salutation, in the English language, and I was taught to use this form of address

when replying to a person. (unless you are of the female gender then I would use, "Dear Madam" or "Dear Miss".

mfg. Kevin in Deva.

Normally in a forum like this there should be a friendly tone and not so arrogant.

For replying to my person I would like: Mr President or Mein F?hrer

MfG

[saschaw]

But to post a comment in German really shows who here is ignorant.

Sorry, but it was me who started this, so it's me to blame, not 0815 ...

PS:

And now, please: peace. =)

Edited August 14, 2007 by saschaw

[Mike Huxley]

Kev ... simple solution to this argument ... send your MVK to a known expert and ask for their oppinion. However to save the cost of doing this, personally I agree with Franken, militaria0815 and others who have posted their views. The quality of this piece is not there and in my opinion I would treat this piece as suspect.

To be honest, I feel that as a "Host" of this forum, your attack on others oppinions is not within the manner of this forum.

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Mike,

You are most certainly allowed an opinion, as all who use this forum.

All I asked at the begining of this, was for some evidence upon which they made there opinions,

or based their claims to be posted,

And, as you can see none was posted.

As I have never met these people in person, or read any published works by them, then

I am well within my rights to ask for proof of whats being said, and what its based upon.

Othewise we all could form opinions and be "experts" using say-so.

Kevin in Deva.

[Mike Huxley]

Kev,

I understand what you are saying about evidence. However, we all know about the "Muffin Crown" 1871 EK's that have flooded the market. This evidence was supplied by collectors and dealers who had the years of experience to recognise what was wrong with the piece.

Like you, I do not personally know those who have posted their opinions ... BUT ...and it's a big BUT. I do feel that there is a very valid point that has been made and the only real way of finding out is to take or send the item to a KNOWN dealer, who will assess it's validity.

I know that if I posted a piece on the forum that was then disputed by those with possibly far more knowledge than me. Then I would doubt what I had bought. But most of all, I would not criticise what they had said or their opinion.

Cheers, Mike

[sammlerchris1]

Is ist funny

franken75 knows, others not

[Kev in Deva]

Well Mike, heres where we agree to disagree

But most of all, I would not criticise what they had said or their opinion.

I dont accept anything, at anybodys say-so, unless proof is given to what they base their "expert" opinions on.

Kevin in Deva.

P.S. anyway I am off to bed, little matters like this wont keep me from getting a good nights sleep.

Edited August 14, 2007 by Kev in Deva