Saxon Officer with ?lbergkreuz

[Komtur]

Hallo forumites,

I would like to show you this rare portrait of a person decorated with the Prussian ?lbergkreuz. It seems to be a Saxon Landwehr Officer from the end of WW1 or short after the war. I began to crossmatch the roll of persons with the ?lbergkreuz to the Ordensalmanach and to some ranklists, until now without success. Knowing here are some poeple with the magic eye for these kind of questions I?m looking forward to your answer.

The decorations are (in my opinion):

- EK 2 1914

- Sachsen Kriegsverdienskreuz 1915-1918

- Sachsen Albrechtsorden Ritterkreuz 1. Klasse

- Sachsen Landwehrdienstauszeichnung 1. Klasse

- Preu?en RAO 4. Klasse

- Preu?en ?lbergkreuz

- ?sterreich Ehrenzeichen vom Roten Kreuz 2. Klasse

Edited August 16, 2007 by Komtur

[Komtur]

some details

[Ulsterman]

Is that Saxon Landwehr artillery?

[Chip]

The only Saxon Lanwehr field artillery regiments I can find are numbered 12 and 19 after the XII and XIX corps that they originate from. The first number on the shoulder board is a "1", but it is difficult to tell what the second number is.

Chip

[Stogieman]

Now that is one very special photo! Thanks!!

[Guest Rick Research]

One problem is that the ?lberg Cross CONTINUED being awarded AFTER the war-- for which there are no rolls!

The combination of an SA3a with RAO4 and Saxon LD1 for an artillery officer who did NOT get swords or crown and swords to his SA3a turns up only one suspect--

Hauptmann der Reserve (24.7.99 B) Benno HULTZSCH, last in Feldart Rgt 28 when he went on retired status a.D. 23.1.09 in Dresden.

He is the ONLY Reserve, Landwehr, or retired dR or dL artillery officer (including Foot Artillery) in the December 1913 Saxon Army Rank List to have the peacetime trio shown on this bar.

The problem, of course, is that this officer might have gotten that Red Eagle and or Albert-Knight 1st in 1914, and the XX after the war.

A secondary suspect could be

Max SCHNABEL, Hauptmann dR (19.09.00 H) of Fussart Rgt 12, who in 1913 held the SA3a and Saxon LD1, but no Red Eagle. And he got Crown and Swords added to his SA3a on 27.09.16 as Major dR in Reserve Fussart Rgt 12-- so IF him this photo must predate that.

I can't imagine anyone getting BOTH the SA3a and RAO4 both in 1914 before the war broke out. RAO4s are EXTREMELY uncommon for dR and dL artillery officers, as were SA3as.

Unfortunately the ?lberg Cross was not an award shown in Saxon Rank Lists.

[Glenn J]

Rick, Komtur

Benno Hultzsch was awarded the charakter rank of Major d.R. a.D. on 22 May 1916 while serving with Bezirkskommando II Dresden.

Glenn

[webr55]

Rick, Komtur

Benno Hultzsch was awarded the charakter rank of Major d.R. a.D. on 22 May 1916 while serving with Bezirkskommando II Dresden.

Glenn

...and he was the father of St. Henry winner Lt dR Reinhold Hultzsch who was KIA as a flyer in 1916 (Artillerie-Flieger-Abt. 210).

[Komtur]

Thanks to all for your research

I found the suspected in the Ordensalmanach too, it must be Benno Hultzsch, Hptm. d. R., Dresden-Strehlen, Karcher-Allee 31 (Dresden 29.11.63): KS?A3b, KS?LD1.

Asking Google for Benno Hultzsch I found:

Reinhold-Hultzsch-Stiftung

Errichtet am 1.Oktober 1916 vom Kaufmann und Major a.D: Benno Hultzsch zur Erinnerung an seinen im Luftkampf gefallenen Sohn. Die Stiftung sollte es kriegsbesch?digten Bundesmitgliedern erm?glichen, ein Gewerbe zu betreiben oder ein Eigenheim zu unterhalten.

So in 1916 he was a Major, then the photo must predate. To found such a donation in memory to his son makes him suspekt to gave money for other purposes too. This is a typical reason for awarding an ?lbergkreuz, so I believe he could be our candidate

Greetings, Komtur.

Edited August 18, 2007 by Komtur

[Komtur]

Hi forumites,

I want to bring this back to the top, because I?m searching for every useful information on the ?lberg-cross. So please send pictures of crosses, miniatures, bars, recepients or awarding documents. I?m also interested in literature sources.

with regards, Komtur.

Edited November 11, 2007 by Komtur

[Guest Rick Research]

I did not think to look in Roth because his Hauptleute up book is for regular officers, but he DID include random dR and dL officers (especially in the medical branch) when he had information on them.

So here, belatedly, is what he had on Hultzsch--

Now, on the surface, it would seem that the photo cannot be Hultzsch because his promotion to Major came before his award of the Saxon War effort Cross BUT

as we know well, "seniority" was very often RETROACTIVE, and MIGHT have been actually processed much later. From what I have seen working on actual award rolls, in many cases the award dates that Roth shows are those of the PUBLICATION of the award, rather than the actual bestowal date.

So IF Hultzsch was promoted later, with retroactive seniority, and IF his War Effort Cross was awarded months earlier and only published in an October gazette edition, it MIGHT still be him. There are still no other potential suspects, so this simply either clouds or sharpens the dating of this photograph, if we can figure out the first-possible and last-possible dates to have THAT rank and THOSE awards.

We do not know where Roth got his detailed information from.

[Glenn J]

Rick,

Hultzsch's promotion to Major d.R. a.D. was published in the 23 May 1916 edition of the Saxon Milit?r-Verordnungsblatt so no retroactive promotion. I assume Roth compiled his information from this publication.

Regards

Glenn

[Guest Rick Research]

So unless they had saved up gazetting War Effort Crosses for months and months....

[IR 134]

In my opinion the person from komtur?photo is not Hultzsch.

Attached a scan from "S?chsischer Kameraden-Kalender auf das Jahr 1934" (Saxon Comrades-Calendar" from the Saxon Military-Association 1934) You?ll see Hultzsch as a major without the ?lberg-Kreuz.

Also have a look at the mustache.

Gru? Stefan

Edited November 15, 2007 by IR 134

[Komtur]

In my opinion the person from komtur?photo is not Hultzsch.

Attached a scan from "S?chsischer Kameraden-Kalender auf das Jahr 1934" (Saxon Comrades-Calendar" from the Saxon Military-Association 1934) You?ll see Hultzsch as a major without the ?lberg-Kreuz.

Also have a look at the mustache.

Gru? Stefan

Hi Stefan,

thanks for your information, I?m afraid you?re right. So we are again on point zero

I?m searching for every useful information on the ?lberg-cross. So please send pictures of crosses, miniatures, bars, recepients or awarding documents. I?m also interested in literature sources.

with regards, Komtur.

Edited November 15, 2007 by Komtur

[Guest Rick Research]

That's very disappointing about Hultzsch. I checked the 1914 Saxon Rank List (actually December 1913) including all the officers who were retired, and there was no match.

So either the ?lberg winner got TWO peacetime Orders in 1914 and is "invisible" in the Rank List, or he was a retired dR/dL officer who, for whatever reason, was NOT listed among the living retirees then.

IF awards were published during the war (we still do not know where the late Erhard Roth got a lot of his information), perhaps that "peacetime" version of the 1914 Austro-Hungarian Red Cross Decoration may still help identify him.