Pour le M?rite

[Mike]

Over the years I've always avoided them (unfortunate but understandable) ..but this is the first time one's surfaced like this and I thought I'd post it to see what your feelings are. From what I can see ?this one looks like a Wagner to me and because of that "cross-hatching" on the Eagles breast ( because of the Die wearing out), I'm guessing late WW1. It's not marked at all. I can also see that die flaw on the "feathers".

I have a good feeling about this one but I'm sure many of you have "played" with more PLM's than I ever have .. Here are a few shots ...if you need a certain angle just ask and I'll post it.

Let me know what you think ..thanks

Edited September 3, 2007 by Mike

[Mike]

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[Komtur]

Hallo Mike,

in my humble opinion this is not an official issued cross. The silver gilded PlM of late WW1 are made by Wagner, Friedl?nder and Godet. The Wagner and Friedl?nder crosses are very similar, but different to yours. Compare the two late WW1 PlM (Wagner left, Friedl?nder right) with the eagles on your cross. I would say it is not only a difference in style, also in quality.

(I will search now for a usefull picture of a Godet cross)

Edited September 3, 2007 by Komtur

[Komtur]

I will search now for a usefull picture of a Godet cross

I could only find an early gold Godet cross about 1880 (Royal collection, London). The quality of the picture is not as good, as the above showed, but I think, the difference is to be seen.

I can only recommend the book Prussian Blue of Stephen Previtera with lots of detailed fotos and a convincing interpretation of the crosses you can find on the marked.

But what is your cross? I would judge it as "after 1918". If one have a so called "Zweitst?ck" of the twenties or a later production for collectors is often quite hard to distinguish.

With regards, Komtur.

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello Mike:

Everything that Komtur is telling you about this piece is correct.

It is certainly not an awarded piece. It would commonly pass at Militaria shows/Ebay as a "1920's-1930's wearing copy". The quality is certainly not up to what I would think that a piece from even that era should exibit. In my opinion (everyone has one don't they), this piece is probably a post-1945 copy made to deceive collectors.

My advice would be to pass on it, unless you purchase it as a copy at a price which would be reasonable for such a copy.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

"SPM"

[Mike]

Hello Mike:

In my opinion (everyone has one don't they), this piece is probably a post-1945 copy made to deceive collectors.

"SPM"

Thanks for ?weighing in ? on this Gents . I was basing my views on something I read regarding the Wagner die wearing out and how they had to put that ?cross hatching? in by hand to make up for the lack of definition (no feathers) . I apparently failed to remember that the ?Cross Hatched? model could be identified as a late war piece because it was marked. It seems the unmarked examples are post war. Also there was a post regarding the die flaw that this does have.

You guys were right about it being post war but , I don?t think it was post WW2 . Here?s a Post where they seem to have locked in this style as a 20?s-30?s version made by Wagner (un-marked) however , from the same War time Die (with the same flaw)

Check out what Les said in Post #17

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=6116...0merit&st=0

Les did make a statement that I found interesting --

?Previtera's book shows numerous examples of Wagner/Friedlaender PlMs and one example awarded to Bohm in May 1918, shows something interesting that is see in the second two Tim posted: one of the eagles on the reverse of the Bohm PlM has -cross hatching- instead of clearly defined breast feathers. The cross hatching is not a result of the stike wearing down, but appear an attempt to "freshen" the die and sharpen the breast details on one of the eagles. This is one of several signs of die deterioration taking place during the war.

The resort to "cross hatching" the eagle details during the spring/summer of 1918 on at least one example that can be shown here, raises the question why don't subsequent awards have the same feature? In otherwords, why doesn't the one awarded to Brian's grandfather? The answer is perhaps obvious if we take the time to look at other features on other PlMs. There are differences in the lettering details of other Wagner/Friedlander pieces indicating that there was more than one working or production die being used to make the solid silver gilt examples.?

Based on these observations and the same war time Die Flaw being present on it ..I don?t think we can classify the example I posted as a post 1945 fake.

Now the question remains as to the value of a 1920's PLM made from the same War time Die and by the original Company

[Les]

Ok...someone mentioned my name.....

The piece Mike shows in his photos, there is what appears to be a specific "die flaw", although the photos aren't clear enough to tell if it is the only one, -and- if the piece was struck or cast. Also, you didn't mention whether there was a silver content stamp or if all markings were lacking.

In the thread Tim Tezer started, mentioned by Mike, the subject of post WWI (but pre-WWII) Wagners was discussed. What was not covered in the thread was there are and have been cast copies of original pieces that have turned up on the market. At least one of the castings I've know about even had what looked like some of the die flaws, although the "crispness" and sharpness of the details were not as good as they'd have been if the piece was struck from dies, rather than cast in a mould.

Mike, if you can (1) get better photos of the obverse (a flat, straight on view with details of all of the eagles), that would be a big help. If the piece was struck, and not cast, this one might not be war-time, but very likely made shortly after the end of the war.

Pending further information, this one has some characteristics the fakes don't usually have, and I'm leaning towards classifying this one as closer to being real than not.

Les

[Komtur]

...had what looked like some of the die flaws...

Les

Very interesting gentlemen! Unfortunately I?ve read the above mentioned thread for the first time (please be indulgent with me, I?m here only for a few month). After that I?m with Les now, that there is a possibility, that the shown cross could be from a Wagner or Friedl?nder die and not very late after 1918.

As I understood, the picture of the reverse and of the eagles of the discussed cross above is the clue? On the other hand, what do you think Les, of the detailed reverse picture of a PlM awarded in June 1918 (as far, as I know) - is this the second part of the answer?

With regards, Komtur.

Reverse of a June 1918 awarded Friedl?nder (FR 938 marked on the lower arm):

Edited September 4, 2007 by Komtur

[Mike]

Thanks for jumping in here Les . I'll try posting as many angles as I can as well as a front on close up.

Just to clarify things ..Have you ever seen or have there been any "documented" / War time Awarded Wagner PLM's with the Flaw and that exhibit cross-hatching on all 4 Eagles and without any markings ? (nice list huh ?)

Hi Komtur ...I can see the flaw in the last shot you posted

[Mike]

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[Les]

Mike,

There is one specific flaw that shows up on all of the original later war silver-gilt Wagner -and- Friedlander marked PlMs. There is at least one other flaw that I don't care to advertise since it helps protect the originals.

This one appears to have a very observable flaw that appears on all of the orignial Wagner/Friedlander pieces from later in the war. This flaw would be very difficult to reproduce exactly except from having been produced from the same die(s) used during the war. Casting details might get most of the flaw but I doubt it would be all that close. I haven't seen and examined any electro-formed pieces....yet.

I've only looked at a very small number of eagles with cross-hatching, and if memory serves me correctly, none of them had hatching on all of the eagles, front and back. That alone doesn't mean I'd disqualify the piece you've shown.

Les

[Leatherneck]

Hello Gents,

Just curious how important are size and weight measurements of original pieces?

Would this also help to determine authentic from reproduction?

Interesting thread, looking forward to hearing the outcome of Mike's PLM.

Cheers,

Howard

[Stogieman]

Maybe I'm just old & blind... it appears to my eyes that the "crosshatching" on the necks and bodies of the eagles shown by Mike's cross are hand-applied with a file. I don't think you'll see that on any example of known, issued crosses of any period, including post 1918 production.

[medalnet]

Maybe I'm just old & blind... it appears to my eyes that the "crosshatching" on the necks and bodies of the eagles shown by Mike's cross are hand-applied with a file. I don't think you'll see that on any example of known, issued crosses of any period, including post 1918 production.

Thank you!!!!! It looks indeed like someone would do to enhance a form for casting new PlM's.

May I add a blow up of the real coined eagle:

This may it clear that there is/was a necissity to work the form before casting a glop of eagle. You will find similar ones on ebay - lately.

[Leatherneck]

Hi Gents,

From what I've learned, a "well known" dealer from Pennsylvania bought the cross.

And he didn't buy it for an"ebay" discount! Maybe we'll get to see it in person at the MAX show.

Cheers,

Howard

Edited September 9, 2007 by Leatherneck

[Biro]

Hi Gents

A couple of points I might add...

The PLM on page 304 of Steve Previtera's excellent Prussian Blue is not only a textbook 938 Wagner, but also attributed to Lt-Col Bohm. It is everything we look for in a silver gilt PLM. One of the reverse eagles has been cross-hatched.

In addition, there is another 'textbook' PLM belonging to a friend of mine that is undeniably from the Wagner die, but marked 'JHW' - presumably by the Werner firm. This exact same 'JHW' mark features on Andreas's excellent site, yet this PLM also exhibits cross-hatching to most of the eagles.

This cross-hatching is not part of the master die, therefore there is no other conclusion than that it was added - by hand, by file - to both these wartime PLM's for a reason we can only assume was aesthetic.

There is ample pictorial reference in this thread to 'the flaws' that proove that the PLM that started this thread is either made on Wagners original dies, or is cast from an original Wagner so I will not draw any more attention to them than is necessary. If you look, it is there.

As a follow-up to Andreas's picture of ''a real coined eagle'' (on the yellow background) let me post a picture from the same dealer of a PLM he recentlty sold as a post-war example. Just like the PLM that started this thread, this example also has all the flaws exhibited by known wartime Wagners....and cross-hatched eagles.

Does cross-hatching mean post-war? Not in the case of Lt Col Bohm's attributed Wagner PLM...

Does no silver content or maker mark mean post-war? There are attributed examples with neither.

I would be interested to hear Andreas's thoughts on this...

All the best

Marshall

Edited September 9, 2007 by Biro

[Stogieman]

Hi Marshall, can you please refresh my memory? Exactly how many PLM's were awarded 1914-1918?

Thanks!!

[medalnet]

Does cross-hatching mean post-war?

Marshall

I do not think that cross hatching means neccessarily post war. My theory is all along that the tooling was refurbished and refurbished with its time of use. If indeed the detailing was worn out of the tooling, Wagner for sure tried to freshen it up.

One has to draw the line between cast and coined.

Some of those shown here are definetly cast.

[medalnet]

...you may want to consider looking at this fine example on ebay, too:

EBay PlM

The seller says that he has old tooling and casts from them.