Soviet Researched Order of Service to the Motherland Group

[Bob]

Excellent

This narrows things down a bit... Tu22 was perhaps not at all far off. Hopefully something more specific in the doc's somewhere and we've found his base

edit - zoom in a bit

Pacific Fleet (TOF)

570 MRAP Tu-16K-10-26* Sovetskaya Gavan

* Badger C-mod

judging from the doc... bingo!

Edited December 21, 2007 by Bob

[Bob]

And this must be what he was flying: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-16

Nice rearside machine gun

Edited December 21, 2007 by Bob

[NavyFCO]

deleted

Edited December 25, 2007 by NavyFCO

[Bob]

Uhoh - cause for concern?

I acquired this group from www.russian-awards.com:

"post-WWII group with Order for Service to the Homeland in the Soviet Armed Forces 3 cl to Pilot

Researched with copy of order book

Order for Service to the Homeland in the Soviet Armed Forces (118861), Order of Red Star(3595471)

All items in very good condition"

As you can see, homeland order erronously specified as the actual number is 18861 (as is also clear from the picture on Alex' site).

After receiving it, I did some freshen up reading on the order of homeland order and by coincidence I saw that the order was once in the hands of Dave who sold it on the Soviet Awards forum... but when he sold it there was no copy of order book yet nor was there a red star.

http://www.soviet-awards.com/forum/soviet-...d-research.html

"This is a very nice Homeland 3rd Class number 18816 awarded to Lieutenant Colonel Viktor Mikhailovich Obodzchnskii. He was the Squadron Commander of Electronic Attack in the 226th Separate Guards Aviation Regiment. The order is in beautiful shape with a nice dark patina and no damage. The order comes with his award card and service history (his citation is still classified). A very neat award to an interesting fellow!"

Note Dave also misquoted the actual award number of the order as it's 18861. Date of Dave's post: 07-17-2006, 10:20 PM

Playing Sherlock Holmes I subsequently found the following post by the buyer of Dave's order...

http://www.soviet-awards.com/forum/soviet-....html#post56350

"I have small researched group with Red Star awarded in 1970, serial number 3595741. Then, I found Red Star in same serial number range ( 36XX XXX) in Dave's "for valor" web. - same year 1970. According to AVERS No. 6, the lowest Red star for 1968-1991 period is # 3754168. I don't have the award book with my Red Star ( only Xerox copy ), but Dave posted image of his award book with 1970 Red Star. Looks like it was couple left over Red Stars with low serial numbers in 1970..." date of post - 11-20-2006, 03:08 AM

Now... 3595741 is awfully close to the 3595471 order of red star that was in the group that I acquired from www.russian-awards.com...

Emails have been sent out - I'm not sure what to think, hoping it's a "lucky" reunification somewhere in the "supply chain" of this "group"

Will put research on hold until I get this clarified.

[Bob]

Now THAT is fascinating. I sold this Homeland 3rd by itself with research....but no book OR Red Star....

Here's the thread: http://www.soviet-awards.com/forum/soviet-...d-research.html

Makes you wonder perhaps.....

Dave

Dave - only just read your reply (presumably you just received my PM on soviet-awards.com).

I am concerned obviously. Understand that somewhere between you and Alex some things were added to this group. Let's hope for the best.

[Ed_Haynes]

In any case, you still have the nice single "Motherland" that Dave sold originally. Unfortunately, only research will tell.

But many things here don't smell seasonally nice.

[Bob]

In any case, you still have the nice single "Motherland" that Dave sold originally. Unfortunately, only research will tell.

But many things here don't smell seasonally nice.

That is correct... both regarding the nice Motherland and the smell surrounding it.

I've contacted Alex + the original person buying it from Dave. Could have exchanged many times in between those two people so let's wait and see if this can be explained.

[NavyFCO]

deleted

Edited December 25, 2007 by NavyFCO

[Bob]

Just saw the group for sale...I guess for a $925 profit over the price I sold the Homeland for (and what it's worth, IMHO) it wouldn't be too tough to make up a book and add a $50 Red Star to the group... But that book looks REALLY nice. If I saw the group, I would have bought it without hesitation (not at that price, but then again that's why I don't collect Soviet awards anymore!)

Dave

You're right Dave. Let's just wait and see how this unravels.

PS - I also found it to be expensive but sometimes looking at awards for sale makes you "just want it" (sort of like going to the supermarket when you're hungry... bad idea) and I've been looking around for a researched Homeland "group" for quite some time now. Besides, as many of us who are enthusiasts but not experts, I'll pay a bit extra for a money back guarantee.

[Guest Rick Research]

"I'll pay a bit extra for a money back guarantee."

I wouldn't. Prices are already so unreasonably high that COMPETENCE should NOT be considered an "extra" on TOP of that.

--------------------------> I'm afraid I too simply skimmed right over the xeroxed Orders Book page as minor and inconsequential because the serial numbers and pair of awards seemed plausible enough. DETAILS DETAILS DETAILS.

In fact, the alarm bells should have started going off with 1970 and 1977 decorations in a book dated 1985

of the "D" series which we have documented solely for awards between 1958-1966--

<a href="http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=675" target="_blank">http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=675</a>

which I think is the final nail in the coffin that the purported Book is a fraud.

We've all had this information posted right here-- and in fact I did that basic Orders Book typology outline work myself

and yet did not

INSTANTLY

pick up on the glaring inconsistencies.

All I can say is, I was distracted by the REAL paperwork, and I'm out of practice having had my Soviet collecting fall away to ZERO in recent years with the insane escalation in prices. (Wasn't expecting fraud so did not see fraud. Paranoia now re-engaged.)

Who didn't do whose "homework" is a moot point, when the accurate information is out there and establishes absolutely that the photocopy is phony. That should be enough to qualify for a normal returns period refund if that is what you wish.

Meanwhile, you've had terrific success tracking this "group" along its trail, so I hope you can establish WHO added WHAT and WHEN.

The incorrect edition "only a xerox" Orders Book suggests a pattern to be watched for with OTHER fraudulent sales.

And on that EXTREMELY important point, please do keep us posted. This seems the sort of trick a greedy crook THINKS he can get away with over and over again.

Meanwhile, you are left with the fact that a circa 1970 Red Star--or more likely now that we are looking HARD at things, 1965-68--by itself may be very very "interesting" indeed, or simply a very late WW2 wounds award. Only research--on WHOEVER the REAL recipient was--will reveal that. Worth the risk for something spectacular or more good money after bad? OSH3s that ARE verified with research seem to have dropped off the face of the Earth, so you have to weigh the chances of ever getting another, when this one is probably as good as they get, short of a freaky Afghan war combat award..

[Bob]

Thank you very much Rick. This confirms two additional things to me:

1) this is a great forum

2) I should stick more to "what I know" (i.e. Mongolian/Albanian)

And indeed, caveat emptor is something I should take more at heart if/when I branch out of my comfort zone of collecting. I believe there's a Russian saying: "trust, but verify".

Some simple questions to be shot off to some people. Will keep the board informed.

[Bob]

Update: Alex has confirmed that he acquired the items from Mark (Mark Signa on Soviet-Awards) and Alex will refund me.

Future observers of this "group": beware!

[NavyFCO]

deleted

Edited December 25, 2007 by NavyFCO

[Bob]

Photocopy only contained the inside spread shown here on this thread.

It's a sad story.

[Guest Rick Research]

Sadly-- I think you're right, Dave.

The appalling amount of cash is more than the criminous amongst us can resist.

We also seem to be in a "culture" where very odd people will FLING clinically insane amounts of money at things and not care whether it is right or not. (One can only wonder at whether our sad dysfunctinal world is as it is because their attitudes are the same towards whatever jobs they are being so obviously overpaid at. )

Dealers who do not care, either, apparently no longer need rely on having a good reputation, since there are always fresh marks battering at their doors with fistfuls of cash to make up for those who no longer buy from them. When BAD reputations don't matter... when the cash keeps pouring in...

that's when it's all over.

Glad I got what I did in Happier Times, and had the language ability to pluck what few gems amid the dross did come my way.

[Bryan]

How come the booklet would be lost if there are only 2 awards listed. It's like someone says: "I'm going to make a copy of the order book before I loose it".

Anyway, someone in the chain was very fraudulent. I hope it's not the dealer otherwise, the list of "trustable" dealers is getting smaller.

[matteti]

How come the booklet would be lost if there are only 2 awards listed. It's like someone says: "I'm going to make a copy of the order book before I loose it".

Anyway, someone in the chain was very fraudulent. I hope it's not the dealer otherwise, the list of "trustable" dealers is getting smaller.

Good comment about the booklet.

And it's weird, beause as Rick pointed the "D" series of the book doesn't match the time period.

Also, the ARC filled in 1977 indicates order book # is: I-007174 while the Xeroxed order book # is : D-723527

This means he would first had the order in a "I" booklet (which came after the "D" series) and then would have lost it and they would have issued a "D" series booklet later... to lose it again after the xerox... smells very very bad.

I also hope it's not the dealer. However, I don't believe he would do such thing. Can you imagine the impact it can have on its reputation and business. He doesn't need this.

[Lapa]

Good comment about the booklet.

And it's weird, beause as Rick pointed the "D" series of the book doesn't match the time period.

Also, the ARC filled in 1977 indicates order book # is: I-007174 while the Xeroxed order book # is : D-723527

This means he would first had the order in a "I" booklet (which came after the "D" series) and then would have lost it and they would have issued a "D" series booklet later... to lose it again after the xerox... smells very very bad.

I also hope it's not the dealer. However, I don't believe he would do such thing. Can you imagine the impact it can have on its reputation and business. He doesn't need this.

Guys,

That is a sad-looking story! Rick says that he focused too much on the research document to detect the problem with the order book photocopy. IMHO, the research itself highlights the existing problem: the Uchotnaya Kartochka clearly indicates that only ONE award was received, that is the OSM 3rd. Nowhere is a Red Star indicated. I tend to believe that the Russian scribes were quite ordered and accurate people; as such, the lame explanation "they simply forgot to write it up" cannot stand. I have seen examples of UK that had entries scribbled in every conceivable way, but in every case, all of the awards were indicated.

Etienne pointed out at the Order Book number. That one struck me also straight on.

Those who know me (and there are quite a few on this and other forums) know that I am an outspoken, long-time advocate of the "fake until proven otherwise approach". It is the, unfortunately, the sad state of Soviet collecting today, and not only in the field of OMD (eg: cloth, badges, paper, etc)

Marc

[Lapa]

Oh, and I just wanted also to vent my anger at whoever came up with this "creative" idea of "improving" a single researched order.

I have a hard time believing that Alex would do such things (business sense would advise not to, obviously). If so, that points the finger to the collector who acquired the order from Dave. I find it disturbing that one of us can think of nothing better than to try and screw fellow collectors

Marc

[Bob]

Update: independent of this thread, triggered by my research request to which I added scans of the doc's I had, Nota Bene has also indicated his belief that the order booklet scan is a fake.

Have tried to contact the person who owned the item in between Dave / Alex but no response (so far).

[Guest Rick Research]

"the Uchotnaya Kartochka clearly indicates that only ONE award was received, that is the OSM 3rd. Nowhere is a Red Star indicated."

Marc-- recent groups are out of my normal collecting experience, but from what I've seen with awards groups that come back with research from the Brezhnev-era, Orders Books were issued individually for every award. Award Record Cards also were issued one by one for Orders--and without any of the routine jubilee and long service medals listed the way these usually were for WW2 and 1950s ARCs.

My own Vozhachenko Afghanistan Red Star and "mirror reverse" OSH3 group (three separate threads posted here there is so much, what with his North Vietnamese Feat of Arms Order and all) only came back with an ARC for his OSH3 and yet the Red Star WAS real and the citation was found. Of course, he also had separate Orders Books from 1977 and 1980 for each Order.

Because we assume that recent operations may still be classified, this is precisely the time period where criminals may think they can get away with tossing together such recent awards "groups," when we now have far better ideas about WW2 and 1950s award serial numbers and dates that disprove made up earlier made-up "groups."

What makes this attempt at passing along a made up pair SO stupid and annoying is that ANY Red Star (etc) from the late 1960s on is VERY likely to be very interesting and worth researching on its own anyway.

It is sad indeed that things should be at Verify THEN Trust.

Rick

[Bryan]

Marc, it's good to see you here!

[Bob]

Update: both of the 2 other parties involved have provided an explanation

http://www.soviet-awards.com/forum/soviet-....html#post72693

Probably this is where this thread should end as people draw their own conclusions.

[Ed_Haynes]

This is, I guess, some sort of resolution. Time to collect other things . . . .

[Ed_Haynes]

A rather sad and depressing tale is emerging over at That Other Forum.