Republic of Ireland Irish 1916-20

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gentlemen of the Club,

Just noticed in the last couple of months the high prices the medals to veterans of the Irish Republican Army (Gentlemen of the 1916-1920 Fight for Independance and not to be confused with the Terrorist Organisation of today).

http://cgi.ebay.com/IRISH-1916-Combatants-...1QQcmdZViewItem

Up to 770 GB Pounds as I write. his pictures are a bit crap though.

http://cgi.ebay.com/IRISH-UPRISING-1917-19...1QQcmdZViewItem

Up to 413 GB Pounds

http://cgi.ebay.com/IRISH-1939-1946-Emerge...1QQcmdZViewItem

This one by the same seller for two very common varieties of WW2 Ermergency Service Medals.
At 72 GB Pounds

http://cgi.ebay.com/IRISH-UPRISING-1917-19...1QQcmdZViewItem

This one is at 599 GB POUNDS (any inscription is done privately as they were issued plain.)

http://cgi.ebay.com/IRISH-1916-Combatants-...1QQcmdZViewItem

This one is up to 770 GB Pounds

Probably the most of these will end up in the USA


Kevin in Deva.

[Ed_Haynes]

The anniversary seems to be shaking a lot of stuff out and onto the market.

[paddywhack]

irish 1916 medals any of them go for mad money there was a big auction on the wensaday the 12 and it was huge! have to see what kinda prices they reached but anything to so with early irish army is worse then german prices!!!

[paddywhack]

want to know how much thomas clarks 1916 rising medla went for in arecent auction???

?105,000 yes thats right!! sadly the font wont make it bigger but after f auction fees of 21% thats 125,000 euros!!! but im not surprized at all at all!!!!!

[Kev in Deva]

want to know how much thomas clarks 1916 rising medla went for in a recent auction???

?105,000 yes thats right!! sadly the font wont make it bigger but after auction fees of 21% thats 125,000 euros!!! but im not surprized at all at all!!!!!

At the moment this auction of an Irish Easter Rising Medal is at 3,550 Euro

(incorrectly described as a combatant medal there was no distinction between the combatant and non-combatant awards made for the 1916 Rising Medals.)

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIt...AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

The current high bidder is a geezer called bravescotbarry ( -1 )

and he came in with a bid of: EUR 3.550,00

and his feedback reads:

Buyer never paid or responded to emails. Avoid this person.

I doubt if he will be paying for an Irish Republican item with a trade name like that.

Second higest bidder is called: sinnfeinwoman ( 1 ) who started bidding at: EUR 2.750,51 and who has at least paid for the one item she bid on and won

Her feedback reads: Thanks Orla nice meeting you,fast payment highly recommended AAA+++++++++++++++

Kevin in Deva.

Edited April 21, 2006 by Kev in Deva

[paddywhack]

thing is that if this is realy an easter rising medal its worth way way WAY more then that!!! and there are plenty of fakes of these!!

Edited April 21, 2006 by paddywhack

[Kev in Deva]

thing is that if this is realy an easter rising medal its worth way way WAY more then that!!! and there are plenty of fakes of these!!

Hallo Paddywhack

I can understand Thomas Clarkes medal getting a whopping great price, (?105,000) as, if my memory serves me correct he was one of the signatures to the Declaration of Independence, but according to page 23 & 24 of "DECORATIONS AND MEDALS OF THE REPUBLIC of IRELAND" by the late EAMONN O'TOOLE,

The medal was created on January 24th, 1941 and was presented to the participants deemed to have taken part in the Rising in Dublin and to members of Rural Units of the Irish Volunteers who were involved and were later declared eiligibale for the award. . . . . . Under Number Issued it states; There were never more than 1,700 men and women involved in the Rising in Dublin, but to date 2,411 medals have been issued. The disparity in numbers may be explained by the fact that isolated rural units of the Volunteers carried out sporadic attacks against the British and the participants were later deemed to have taken part in the Rising and were later declared eligible to receive the medal. . . . . .

A complete nominal Roll of the Participants, together with their autographs of most of them, may be seen in the 1916 Room of the National Museum in Dublin.

Paddy, Can you remember how such an important part of Irish history as Thomas Clarks Medal was allowed to be sold off? without intervention from the Irish Government? and what proof was offered to say it was Thomas Clark's personal medal, taking in mind that all medals were issued with no engraving, this was done privately by the reciepiant in a number of styles.

Kevin in Deva.

Edited April 21, 2006 by Kev in Deva

[paddywhack]

from what i heard it came from his wife after she died! and your bloody right i dont know how the bloody hell thses medals left ireland! it realy annoys me!!!

[Kev in Deva]

At the moment this auction of an Irish Easter Rising Medal is at 3,550 Euro

Second higest bidder is called: sinnfeinwoman ( 1 ) who started bidding at: EUR 2.750,51 and who has at least paid for the one item she bid on and won

Her feedback reads: Thanks Orla nice meeting you,fast payment highly recommended AAA+++++++++++++++

With 1 hour and 11 minutes left on this auction its "sinnfeinwoman" in the lead with a bid at:EUR 4,150.00

The rest of the field looks like this:

sinnfeinwoman ( 1 ) EUR 4,150.00 22-Apr-06 00:07:28 BST

sigersons ( 7 ) EUR 4,100.00 21-Apr-06 20:50:00 BST

sigersons ( 7 ) EUR 4,000.00 21-Apr-06 20:49:36 BST

sinnfeinwoman ( 1 ) EUR 3,500.00 19-Apr-06 22:46:52 BST

bernardk2201 ( 15) EUR 2,999.00 19-Apr-06 19:36:33 BST

sinnfeinwoman ( 1 ) EUR 2,750.51 15-Apr-06 22:14:54 BST

antony2005lotrs ( 21) EUR 2,700.00 19-Apr-06 19:19:47 BST

antony2005lotrs ( 21) EUR 2,500.00 19-Apr-06 16:48:49 BST

antony2005lotrs ( 21) EUR 2,300.00 19-Apr-06 16:48:34 BST

antony2005lotrs ( 21) EUR 2,200.00 19-Apr-06 16:48:19 BST

antony2005lotrs ( 21) EUR 2,000.00 19-Apr-06 09:28:55 BST

antony2005lotrs ( 21) EUR 1,700.00 19-Apr-06 09:28:42 BST

antony2005lotrs ( 21) EUR 1,600.00 19-Apr-06 09:28:28 BST

vedelw ( 106) EUR 1,460.00 17-Apr-06 17:35:09 BST

vedelw ( 106) EUR 1,420.00 17-Apr-06 17:34:54 BST

vedelw ( 106) EUR 1,310.00 17-Apr-06 17:34:35 BST

vedelw ( 106) EUR 1,250.00 17-Apr-06 17:34:21 BST

vedelw ( 106) EUR 1,040.00 17-Apr-06 17:34:08 BST

8854martin ( 15) EUR 1,000.00 17-Apr-06 15:57:25 BST

8854martin ( 15) EUR 900.00 17-Apr-06 15:57:02 BST

8854martin ( 15) EUR 860.00 17-Apr-06 15:56:45 BST

8854martin ( 15) EUR 835.00 17-Apr-06 15:56:20 BST

mcanselm ( 74) EUR 810.00 17-Apr-06 04:39:21 BST

mcanselm ( 74) EUR 790.00 17-Apr-06 04:38:56 BST

mcanselm ( 74) EUR 770.00 17-Apr-06 04:38:17 BST

patgolly ( 61) EUR 750.00 16-Apr-06 20:36:46 BST

bernardk2201 ( 15) EUR 721.00 16-Apr-06 09:53:30 BST

4029roche ( 4 ) EUR 700.00 14-Apr-06 20:39:48 BST

The final five minutes should prove to be very exciting.

Kevin in Deva.

AND THE WINNER BY A NOSE IS: sinnfeinwoman (1)

Kevin in Deva.

Edited April 24, 2006 by Kev in Deva

[paddywhack]

to be honest id want to see the medal in myy hand before id pay that sorta money!!!!!

[Kev in Deva]

to be honest id want to see the medal in myy hand before id pay that sorta money!!!!!

Me too Paddywack

thats alotta dosh and it would be quite a sickener if it turns out to be a REPRO

Kevin in Deva.

[paddywhack]

chances are quiet high that it will be a repo as most of those medals are in collections here in ireland!!oh well!!!!

[Michael Johnson]

Well, if everyone who claimed to have been in the GPO received a medal there must be several hundred thousand of them out there (and the GPO must have occupied half of Dublin).

[paddywhack]

ha ha ha ha very very true!!!

[Kev in Deva]

chances are quiet high that it will be a repo as most of those medals are in collections here in ireland!!oh well!!!!

HERE WE GO AGAIN:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...mMakeTrack=true

I spotted this one with only two hours to go, seller has only managed a low price, 227 GBP, probably because he had it listed before and then pulled the auction with the lame excuse of he would be on holiday when the auction finished, (probably was hoping to get a bigger price greedy bugger)

Kevin in Deva

[paddywhack]

its amazing JUST a few months ago the average price for a black and tan medal was about 250 euros!! now after a biG auction of easter rising stuff the price has just sky rocket out of here!!!! i should have bought one when it was 90 irish pounds!! ah well you live and learn i guess!!

Edited May 5, 2006 by paddywhack

[Ulsterman]

Not very popular items round my way-but I remember seeing them for half what an EK2 costs.

I wish I could find an original UVF badge though-most are modern "copies" used by the gangsters and terrorists.

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gentlemen

just to show the latest price that the Irish Rebellion 1916 medals are rating, and this one is not even for a Combatant!!

Link to Ebay Auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...A:IT&ih=018

This one is up to 1,800 GB Pounds with one hor one day to go!!!

Kevin in Deva

Edited July 24, 2006 by Kev in Deva

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gentlemen

just to show the latest price that the Irish Rebellion 1916 medals are rating, and this one is not even for a Combatant!

This one is up to 1,800 GB Pounds with one hor one day to go!!!

Kevin in Deva

FINAL AUCTION PRICE: GBP 2,967.00 or $5,461.36 USA Dollars

Kevin in Deva

[Paul L Murphy]

Gentlemen,

I would like to comment on some of the opinions expressed here regarding 1916 and Anglo Irish War Medals since they are one of my main collecting areas. The 1916 medal sold on e-bay appears genuine. The top suspension bar is the wider bar used on the 1917-21 Medal but these are often found on original 1916 medals, especially late issues. The price is in line with those that sold in Adams and Whyte's auctions in April. Prior to those auctions EUR2,000 was the market price for an un-named and unattributable 1916 Medal. Since the auctions that has jumped to EUR4,000. The price for an attributable 1916 Medal now seems to be from EUR8,000 upwards.

The box is not a box of issue for the 1916 Medal, it is most likely for an Emergency Service Medal. The correct box is larger, well padded and a darker shade of green with a gilt inscription on the lid.

With regard to Tom Clarke's medal, it came from the family. Furthermore, 403 of the 1916 Medals were officially named and numbered. These were awarded to the next of kin of recipients who died before the medal was issued (or in some cases to next of kin who made late claims for deceased participants). Since the medal was issued in 1941 most of these are not actually to people who died in the Easter Rising, in fact only 88 of the 403 are true "posthumous" awards. The true posthumous awards are numbered 1 to 88 and the names are in alphabetic order. Thise numbered from 89 onwards are in order of the application being processed. Tom Clarke's medal, and the medals to all other signatories of the proclamation, are officially named and numbered. All officially numbered and named 1916 Medals should be considered very rare and expensive. It is impossible to speak of a market price for these since they are seldom sold. I am only aware of three proper Posthumous awards that have been sold, ie. numbered below 88, the Clarke medal in April and two others that were sold a number of years ago.

There are also offically named and numbered 1917-21 Medals, about 1,500 each of the combatant and non combatant versions. These were also given to the next of kin of recipients who died before the medal was issued. They are difficult to find and are expensive.

Most named medals from this period, such as those on e-bay in this thread, are privately named. Authenticating the naming is always a problem since by its very nature it is easy to fake. On the subject of fakes, there are a number on the market. The best come from Australia but even these are easy to spot if you have experience in handling the original medals. They are produced for display in frames so the obverse is good but the reverse is pretty poor. I should point out that there are at least three main die variations of 1916 medals. The early awards are noticably thinner than late awards, which has lead some novice collectors to pronounce some of these as fake. In actual fact they are genuine medals and scarcer than the early thinner version.

The price rise in Irish medals has been tremendous over the past few years. I cannot decide whether I should be happy, since my collection is now worth a lot more than I paid for it, or sad since it is getting very difficult to add to it !

Feel free to ask any other questions about these medals and I will do my best to answer them.

Regards,

Paul L Murphy

[Kev in Deva]

Dear Paul

Cead Milie Failte

Welcome to the forum and many thanks for your information with regards these Irish medals, and information regarding issue numbers.

There has been at least one occasion on Ebay Ireland (linked in with Ebay UK) where a 1916 medal was sold, money paid, and nothing delivered, the buyer has contacted the Irish Police to investigate the seller, so potential bidders beware.

Kevin in Deva

Edited July 26, 2006 by Kev in Deva

[Paul L Murphy]

That is just plain criminal fraud and the seller deserves to be punished. I only buy 1916 Medals if they are named or otherwise attributable so I tend to buy from reliable sources, not e-bay. However it is distressing to know that you have people out there prepared to rip off collectors in this manner. To my mind it is even worse than selling fakes !

[Ulsterman]

Mr. Murphy:

Perchance could you list the 88 original numbered medals?

Do you have names for the other officially named Tan war medals at all?

Lastly, I have always wondered what exactly one did to receive a noncom IRA medal? Can you give us any ideas?

Ta,

[Paul L Murphy]

Ulsterman,

I published a list of the 88 numbered awards in the journal of the Medal Society of Ireland a few years ago. At that stage it was still speculative but new research has shown that it is broadly correct. I will see if I can dig it out.

The non com IRA medals were given to people who were either politically active during the 1919-21 period or who provided support services such as safe houses, information gathering etc. but who did not actually fire a weapon. Apart from the few named Tan war medals in my own collection I do not have access to a list of named awards.

I hope this helps.

Paul

[Ceallach]

This recent statement by the Irish Minister of Defence in reply to a parlimentary question may be of interest :

STATEMENT BY THE MINISTER FOR DEFENCE

ADJOURNMENT DEBATE ? SEANAD EIREANN

17 May 2006

The need for the Minister for Defence, in view of the great success of the recent Easter 1916 commemorations, to clarify the current arrangements for the replacement of 1916 and War of Independence medals; and if he has any proposals to review these arrangements this year.

Senator Diarmuid Wilson

I am glad to have the opportunity to address this matter and I thank Senator Wilson for raising it.

It is not necessary for me to dwell on the importance of the 1916 Rising and the War of Independence to the nation. Together they led to the establishment of the State in which we live today and to the freedom we now enjoy. The importance of these events is also reflected in the fact that we have five military medals related to that period of our history.

For the information of Senators, I will give some brief background to each of the five medals.

The 1916 Medal was awarded to persons who participated in The Rising during the week commencing 23rd April 1916. Some 2,000 of these Medals were awarded.

The Service (1917-1921) Medal with Bar was awarded to persons who rendered active military service during the War of Independence. There were over 15,000 Medals awarded in this class.

The Service (1917-1921) Medal without Bar was awarded to persons whose service was not deemed active military service, but who were members of Oglaigh na h?ireann, (Irish Republican Army), Fianna ?ireann, Cumann na mBan or the Irish Citizen Army continuously for the three months which ended with the Anglo-Irish Truce of the 11th July, 1921. Over 50,000 Medals were awarded in this class.

The 1916 Survivors Medal was created in 1966 to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the Rising of Easter Week 1916. The medal was issued to those who had been awarded the 1916 Medal and who were still alive at the time.

And lastly, the Truce (1921) Commemoration Medal was created to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the Truce that ended the War of Independence. The medal was issued to Veterans of the War of Independence who were alive on the 11th July 1971 and who had been duly awarded the Service (1917-1921) Medal, whether with or without Bar.

The Department receives requests from time to time for the replacement of lost, stolen or destroyed Medals awarded to Veterans of the 1916 Rising and the War of Independence.

It has been settled policy of the Department of Defence for many, many years that replacement medals were issued on a once only basis on receipt of a bona-fid? request from the Veteran to whom the original medals were awarded. This policy was adopted in the interests of preserving the intrinsic value of the medals and to strictly limit the number of medals issued in any particular case. Although almost all of the Veterans are now deceased, the rationale for restricting the issue of replacement medals is still valid.

Apart from the intrinsic value of the medals, their monetary value on the open market is also a factor. Some indication of their value can be gleaned from the recent sale by auction of a posthumously awarded 1916 Medal that achieved a price of ?105,000 on 12 April, 2006. Other 1916 and War of Independence medals, sold at the same auction, fetched amounts ranging from ?3,200 to ?14,000.

While this has been the long-standing Departmental policy, I can totally understand the feelings of the family members of Veterans whose requests for replacement Medals are refused.

These families feel rightfully proud of their ancestors? service and contribution to the birth of this State and would like some visible expression of it. With this in mind: some weeks ago I initiated an examination in my Department of the possibility of issuing some form of official certificate for such cases.

I would envisage that the certificates would confirm that one of the medals in question had been issued to the named Veteran. If more than one medal had originally been issued, a separate certificate could be provided for each medal.

Officials in my Department are currently examining a number of options, including possible designs and formats for these certificates. I am confident that this initiative will go some way to addressing this problem and I expect that the examination in my Department will be completed very shortly.

On a related note, I was very pleased to be able to announce recently a substantial increase in the War of Independence pensions. I felt that the 90th anniversary of the 1916 Rising was an appropriate time to show the country?s appreciation of the major part played by Veterans in the foundation of the State. The pensions are being increased by 50% retrospectively to the 1st April 2006. They were last increased in mid-2004 when a 50% increase was also applied.

I trust that I have clarified matters to the satisfaction of the House.

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An Ceallach