Republic of Ireland Irish 1916-20

[Irish1916]

Whereas this is the Australian ribbon

[Irish1916]

And this is the modern replacement ribbon for sale on ebay

[Ceallach]

This picture shows two 1916 medals issued to the same man. One his original 1940's version and the other a replacement issued in 1988 (I have the paperwork from the Department of Defence) which he received when he thought he had lost the first and requested the second.

Would be interested in seeing the reverse of the repalcement medal itself, if possible. Curious, as medal stocks were supposedly exhausted in the late 70's.

Regards - An Ceallach

[Irish1916]

Would be interested in seeing the reverse of the repalcement medal itself, if possible. Curious, as medal stocks were supposedly exhausted in the late 70's.

Regards - An Ceallach

This may be a bit of a public forum to open up this discussion on but here goes anyway.

The medal in question along with a 1988 replacement of a 1966 medal and an "original" 1941 version of a 1916 medal were given to me by my grandfather. They belonged to his best friend Mr. Joe Doe. There was also a 1916 medal box.

They were accompanied by 3 pieces of paperwork, one of which confirms, without doubt I believe, that two of them (a 16 & 66) came from the Dept. of Defence.

When I first received them I went to see an auctioneer very well known to all of us who dismissed me with my two "fake" medals and one "real" one and thus my collecting and research began.

The medal & ribbon have some unusual elements to it and any insight anyone can give to this VERY late issue medal would be of interest to us all, I am sure.

Its weight and size are as per the average of all my others.

[Ulsterman]

Cool- I was actually in Dun Laoghaire on that day catching the ferry!

The chap who signed it must still be about. Can you ring him up for any more details?

[PKeating]

The buyer of the Tynan group appears to be a bit of a bonehead. Even if he thought of putting the stuff up on eBay as multiple lots in order to provoke "the big players" into shelling out even more just to keep a piece of Irish patrimony together, it is a stupid, rash sort of a plan. The fellow should perhaps devote his energies to selling used cars or knock-off perfume and aftershave out of a suitcase. There should be a way of banning this fool from auction houses. Mind you, given the morality of the average auctioneers, there is scant chance of that.

This isn't too off-topic, as anyone familiar with WOI history will immediately see upon looking at these solemn features.

I showed this to "a Dublin auction house" specialising in Irish independence-related material and was informed that it might be worth as much as ?80.00 but only to the right person because this sort of thing is a bit hard to sell.

It looks like a drawing but it's a stone proof of a photographic portrait of Sir Roger Casement. The extract from the 1965 inventory explains that the photograph was done in Dresden during Casement's visit to Germany early in 1916, just before the Easter Rising. Police mugshots and newspaper snapshots outside The Old Bailey apart, this is probably the last picture of Casement. The inventory makes a reference to the image being signed. It is signed by Professor Fanto, who dedicated it to his friend, the Dresden hotel director Gustav R?cker, who assembled a modest but fascinating collection of "celebrity" photographs, autographs and other ephemera during his time at the hotel in the 1920s and 1930s. It bears another signature but it doesn't look like the single Casement signature I have seen. It may be that of the artist who produced the plate or the print. The other day, I paid ?150.00 for a rather nice wartime print of an SS-Fallschirmj?ger photo. I suppose it must be worth twice as much as a period stone proof print - probably a one-off - of the last known photo-portrait of one of Ireland's most significant WOI-related figures, taken during the trip to Germany in January 1916 that got him hanged in Pentonville Gaol before the year was out...

Reassuring to know that Dublin auction houses are just like London auction houses...

PK

Edited February 2, 2008 by PKeating

[Brendan]

The auction has disappeared and is replaced with a buy-it-now for 10 grand or best offer, one offer so far but it was declined. It appears the sellers account was hijacked, maybe the Tynan ghost or they do say if you upset the 'boys' even the grave will not protect you.

[saoirse]

Gentleman.

New member enjoying your healthy debate.Just wondering can anybody telll me how many 1916 minatures are or were in extincances?

Also i just read in the Irish times Adams have just advertised for items in their April Independance auction.

Saoirse.

Thanks for all the helpfull reply's but im still not any the wiser as to how many minature 1916's are in extincance. Anybody

any idea of the value of this medal? Anybody interested????????????

Saoirse.

[Irish1916]

Gentlemen, does anyone have any thoughts of the officially named and number 1916 medal for sale at the moment and the posthumous numbering system.

It is to William Partridge and is numbered 67. Paul Murphy's excellent research for the medal society of Ireland made the very accurate conclusion on the similarity of the killed in action of Easter week to the medals number 1 to 84 when listed alphabetically.

However William died in 1917.

Could it be possible that the numbers are related to a list of people on a pension recipient basis?

Notes from the archives

Letter to President Cosgrave from Mrs Partridge, 22 January 1925. `As you may know I made application for pension but owing to my Husband William not dying of gun shot wounds I did not come under the Act. All my widowed friends of 1916 are getting pensions and I would like to be the same'

Minute to R O hEigheartaigh from Horgan, Army Pensions Department, 8 December 1924, stating that Mr William Partridge's death `is attributable to prison treatment, and in these circumstances his widow's claim will be eligible for consideration if and when the Amending Pensions Bill becomes law'.

[Paul L Murphy]

Gentlemen, does anyone have any thoughts of the officially named and number 1916 medal for sale at the moment and the posthumous numbering system.

It is to William Partridge and is numbered 67. Paul Murphy's excellent research for the medal society of Ireland made the very accurate conclusion on the similarity of the killed in action of Easter week to the medals number 1 to 84 when listed alphabetically.

However William died in 1917.

Could it be possible that the numbers are related to a list of people on a pension recipient basis?

Notes from the archives

Letter to President Cosgrave from Mrs Partridge, 22 January 1925. `As you may know I made application for pension but owing to my Husband William not dying of gun shot wounds I did not come under the Act. All my widowed friends of 1916 are getting pensions and I would like to be the same'

Minute to R O hEigheartaigh from Horgan, Army Pensions Department, 8 December 1924, stating that Mr William Partridge's death `is attributable to prison treatment, and in these circumstances his widow's claim will be eligible for consideration if and when the Amending Pensions Bill becomes law'.

Very interesting but I do not think that it went on pension claims. I have the medal to Frank Sheridan in my collection and he die in November 1916 from wounds received during the Rising. His medal is numbered 256. Perhaps Partridge ended up on a list of KIAs acording to the Department of Defense due to his widows intervention ? Sheridan obviously did not.

Thanks for the comments on my earlier research by the way,

Paul

[Irish1916]

What if Partridges' wife's intervention resulted in his inclusion in a successful 1923 pension application (despite his death after the week) and no-one made an application for Frank Sheridan (who also died after the week) and thus his decedents did not receive a 1923 pension.

Then the 1923 pension list would include Partridge as a killed in action and not Sheridan and it may then follow that Partridge was numbered under 84 and Sheridan over 85.

(I can't believe I am debating this with the man who discovered the formula in the first instance)

[irishmedals]

So, who was medal #1 ??? Did i read once that it was Dev himself?

[Brendan]

Number 1 on the list of named 1916 medals is Adams, John F. It could not have been Dev because numbered medals were only issued to the next of kin of those who had died either during the 1916 Rising or in the intervening years between 1916 and when the medal was issued in 1941.

[Ceallach]

... numbered medals were only issued to the next of kin of those who had died either during the 1916 Rising or in the intervening years between 1916 and when the medal was issued in 1941.

Officially named & numbered medals were also issued, post 1941, to those who were deceased prior to an application being made. For example a posthumous award was made to Jack Kavanagh (Wexford IV) who died in the 60's and for whom an application was made in the 70's by a family member.

An Ceallach

[Ceallach]

The medal & ribbon have some unusual elements to it and any insight anyone can give to this VERY late issue medal would be of interest to us all, I am sure.

Its weight and size are as per the average of all my others.

The unusual elements I would note are (1) whereas "Seachtmhain na Casca" appears precisely between 9 & 3 o'clock on the other 1916 medal's I own or have observed, in the case of this example the lettering extends substantially beyond both of these reference points; (2) the definition of the flames and to a lesser extent the rays are a remarkable contrast to the sharp detailing on the other 1916 medal's I refer to in (1) above, and (3) the ribbon suspension ring is of the larger type.

Based on the foregoing I would suggest that it is a new/different strike, but at who's behest - An Roinn Cosanta ? A numismatic oddity indeed. Could you post an image of the medal front.

An Ceallach

[Ceallach]

Very interesting but I do not think that it went on pension claims. I have the medal to Frank Sheridan in my collection and he die in November 1916 from wounds received during the Rising. His medal is numbered 256. Perhaps Partridge ended up on a list of KIAs acording to the Department of Defense due to his widows intervention ? Sheridan obviously did not.

Thanks for the comments on my earlier research by the way,

Paul

It could be that "Killed in Action" was extended to include on a case specific basis, "Died as a Result of Action" as the following extract from Dail Eireann debate on the 1923 Pension Bill would appear to be getting to. Interesting that William Partridge is the context.

Mr. JOHNSON: I would like to support the view, if I may, A Chinn Chomhairle, that at least the Minister would take powers in the Resolution, and ultimately in the Bill, to deal with cases of special hardship. I was proposing to ask the D?il to agree to an amendment on the lines that have been mentioned [2157] by Deputy Figgis, and also to ask for amplification of the definition clause, the word ?wound? to include illness contracted as a direct consequence of active service.

Judging by the Minister's statement he is not prepared to accept that, but at least it would be desirable that he should have power under the Resolution and under the Act to make provision for cases which are clearly attributable to service in the Army. Let me instance a case which I think is typical, the case of William Patridge, who prided in calling himself Volunteer Partridge. He fought in 1916; he was sentenced, imprisoned, ill-treated, and as a direct consequence, as can be clearly proved, of his ill-treatment, he died. Under the Bill I think his widow and dependants have no claim, but it is clearly a case where there ought to be a claim. While the Minister deprecates dealing with special cases, and I admit the undesirability of trying to argue from special cases to a general principle, nevertheless that is a good reason for getting power to deal with special cases, and the Bill does not provide for that power.

http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/plweb...amp;setCookie=1

In this likely scenario Paul Murphy's Hypotheses remains valid.

An Ceallach

[PKeating]

Dr William Shannon was my aunt's father.

PK

[Ceallach]

Gentlemen,

As if the study of Irish Rebellion Service Medals was not complicated enough already, we must also consider the status of those medals that were deemed, on further investigation post 1957, not to have been "duly awarded". The need for this further investigation was deemed necessary as the holder of a Service Medal was to a point automatically entitled to a a service pension. The abstract below from Dail Eireann debates, refers to 693 medals being deemed "not to have been duly awarded". Is this pension linkage unique to the Irish situation ? Any comment would be appreciated.

An Ceallach

D?il ?ireann - Volume 237 - 28 November, 1968

Ceisteanna?Questions. Oral Answers. - Award of Service Medals.

Mr. Timmins Mr. Timmins Mr. T. Dunne Mr. T. Dunne

78. Mr. T. Dunne and Mr. Timmins asked the Minister for Defence (a) why 1917-21 service medals awarded by his Department are now termed not duly awarded and (b) the number thus classified to date.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Hilliard) Michael Hilliard

Minister for Defence (Mr. Hilliard): The Government decided in June, 1957, to institute a new pattern of investigation of applications for the Service (1917-1921) Medal, the old system of verification having proved unreliable in practice. The Government also decided that, where a person claimed a special allowance under the Army Pensions Acts by virtue of his being the holder of a Service (1917-1921) Medal which had been issued under the old system of verification, his entitlement to the Medal must be reinvestigated in accordance with the revised procedure in order to establish that the Medal had been ?duly awarded?, the expression used in the Army Pensions Acts.

Where a person applies for the recent concessions to veterans of the War of Independence by virtue of his being the holder of a Service (1917-1921) Medal issued under the old system of verification, his entitlement to the Medal must likewise be reinvestigated.

Of some 38,000 Service (1917-1921) Medals issued prior to June, 1957, 693 have to date been held, on re-investigation, not to have been duly awarded, when the applicants applied for special allowances or for the recent concessions to veterans.

[Ceallach]

Dr William Shannon was my aunt's father.

PK

Very nice and thanks for posting. Do you have any information on his activities ?

An Ceallach

Edited February 6, 2008 by Ceallach

[Ulsterman]

well, an exact and precise number like 693 means that there's a list somewhere deep within the Eiran Treasury archives. There was a post some while back regarding an ex-RIC officer who was repeatedly requested to verify IRA/IRB or Cumann membership by locals who hadn't done a thing in the 1920s so as to obtain a pension. I think a search will reveal that story.

I would bet a Euro or two that the majority of the 693 (+) were 1921 war medals without a Cormac bar though-

Edited February 6, 2008 by Ulsterman

[Ceallach]

Number 1 on the list of named 1916 medals is Adams, John F.

Hi Brendan,

Could you advise the source of this information.

An Ceallach

[Ceallach]

I would bet a Euro or two that the majority of the 693 (+) were 1921 war medals without a Cormac bar though-

Hi Ulsterman,

Plausible. The criteria for award was evidence of at least three months of continuos service prior to Truce. Would assume that it would have been easier to prove combat action.

Regards - An Ceallach

Edited February 6, 2008 by Ceallach

[PKeating]

Two unnamed examples. The Comrac turned up in a London dealers for ?20.00 about three years ago and the other one was given to me by another uncle in Dublin when I was twelve, some thirty-five years ago. I have no idea of its provenance.

Very nice and thanks for posting. Do you have any information on his activities ?

An Ceallach

I will have to call my aunt and ask her but I believe her father was a Clare man. I saw some photos of him with quite a well-armed, impressive-looking group of IRA soldiers. He was, later, quite a well-respected doctor and a couple of obituaries mentioned his service.

Regards,

PK

Edited February 6, 2008 by PKeating

[Brendan]

Hi Brendan,

Could you advise the source of this information.

An Ceallach

Hi An Ceallach,

I have seen several pieces of research attempting to identify the system used in the numbering of named 1916 and Black and Tan medals and Adams John F is always first. The system uses the causality list from the 1916 Rising, 64 KIA and 16 executed. It is assumed that the first 80 numbered 1916 medals where issued to these 80 causalities and that an alphabetical list was drawn up numbered 1 to 80 so as Adams John F was first alphabetically it is assumed he received medal number one.

There is as you will notice a lot of assumption used when working out the system but as they say, it is as good as any.

The problem with verifying the assumed system is the restrictive amount of numbered medals researchers have access too and also the number of falsely of faked named and numbered medals that appear.

I am always surprised that when these well-documented medals that do appear for sale never have a copy of the pensions application. Pension applications contain a brief description of the person's involvement in the 1916 Rising and were always well vetted and witnesses required to verify the applicant's story. It was and still is a criminal offence to falsify a pensions application, maybe that's why you don't see so many. At the moment only relatives of a deceased person who was in receipt of a war pension can have access to the pension application.

[Danny70]

I am always surprised that when these well-documented medals that do appear for sale never have a copy of the pensions application. Pension applications contain a brief description of the person's involvement in the 1916 Rising and were always well vetted and witnesses required to verify the applicant's story. It was and still is a criminal offence to falsify a pensions application, maybe that's why you don't see so many. At the moment only relatives of a deceased person who was in receipt of a war pension can have access to the pension application.

Hi Brendan,

Regarding the war pension, I have in my possesion my father's uncle's War Of Independence Medal (with comrac bar) and also his military pension document. He (Anthony Duignan) died in 1942, and unfortunately I know practically nothing of his activities during the war. Do you know if it would be possible for me to view his pensions application, and how I would go about doing so?

Thanks,

Regards - Danny