webr55 Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 (edited) Here are some pics of a relative of mine: Wilhelm Manger, Imperial and TR Zahlmeister. Born 17.5.1890 in Engelnstedt From a postcard he sent to my grandmother in 1917, I know he served as Zahlmeister-Stellvertreter in IR 331 at the Russian front. I have no promotion dates from WW1 and don't know whether he served in the Reichsheer (though I THINK he did). From the photo below I know he got the EK 2 1914 and the War Aid Cross. I find him again (thanks to Glenn and the Deutsche Dienststelle) as Stabszahlmeister with seniority 1.6.1935 in Ersatz-Kp. Jäger-Reg. 33 (Braunschweig??). In 1939, he was Stabszahlmeister in Panzer-Abwehr-Abteilung 31 (Braunschweig), in September 1939 in "Stab und Nachrichtenzug Panzer-Abwehr-Ersatz-Abt. 13 (Braunschweig)". This picture dates from September 1939 and shows him standing behind his father (and next to my great-grandmother): Edited November 11, 2017 by webr55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted January 19, 2008 Author Share Posted January 19, 2008 (edited) Close-up: Edited November 11, 2017 by webr55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted January 19, 2008 Author Share Posted January 19, 2008 (edited) I'm not sure if he has the 25+12 or the 18+4 in this picture. This second photo shows him in October 1941: Edited November 11, 2017 by webr55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted January 19, 2008 Author Share Posted January 19, 2008 (edited) Close-up of the ribbon bar confirms the War Aid Cross and two DAs. The buttonhole ribbon must be a KVK2: Edited November 11, 2017 by webr55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted January 19, 2008 Author Share Posted January 19, 2008 (edited) In 1942, he was Stabszahlmeister in Wehrkreis XI (Hannover). It seems he did not serve at the front during WW2.His final rank was Oberstabsintendant with seniority 1.5.1944. That was after the reorganisation of Beamten etc. ranks who became "Offiziere im Truppensonderdienst". Oberstabsintendant was the equivalent of Major.On the day the US troops entered Braunschweig, he drove to my grandparents' hometown (where he used to play as a child) and shot himself in his full uniform. Edited January 19, 2008 by webr55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 I looked in the 1914 Prussian ranklist, the Army Honor Ranklist, the 1924 ranklist and the 1939 and I can not find a Zahlmeister with the last name of Manger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted January 19, 2008 Author Share Posted January 19, 2008 (edited) I looked in the 1914 Prussian ranklist, the Army Honor Ranklist, the 1924 ranklist and the 1939 and I can not find a Zahlmeister with the last name of Manger.Right. He was not yet commissioned in 1914, maybe not even during WW1. Zahlmeister-Stellvertreter was a wartime-introduced rank for NCOs. Reichsheer and WH Beamten are invisible in the usual ranklists, but Glenn found him in the Beamten-Rangliste 1939. Edited January 19, 2008 by webr55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 That's 25 and 12 (I am paying attention today, Sascha! ) after the Hindenburg. He probably first went into the army some time 1908-10 as a draftee who re-enlisted as a Kapitulant for NCO service, and then got promoted into the glacially slow paymaster corps. He mustn't have had the Abitur education that enabled higher promotions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 That's 25 and 12 (I am paying attention today, Sascha! Hey fine, you're still learning ... Close-up of the ribbon bar confirms the War Aid Cross and two DAs.It's Bremen ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted January 19, 2008 Author Share Posted January 19, 2008 (edited) That's 25 and 12 (I am paying attention today, Sascha! ) after the Hindenburg. He probably first went into the army some time 1908-10 as a draftee who re-enlisted as a Kapitulant for NCO service, and then got promoted into the glacially slow paymaster corps. He mustn't have had the Abitur education that enabled higher promotions.That's right. I'm not sure what he had but definitely not Abitur. Thanks for confirming the 25+12, I couldn't tell.Actually, Bremen was my first thought, but the shape of the cross on the medal bar confirmed otherwise. Edited January 19, 2008 by webr55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted January 19, 2008 Author Share Posted January 19, 2008 (edited) Here's his signature from the 1917 postcard: Edited November 11, 2017 by webr55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted January 19, 2008 Author Share Posted January 19, 2008 (edited) And the stamp: Edited November 11, 2017 by webr55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted January 19, 2008 Share Posted January 19, 2008 Actually, Bremen was my first thought, but the shape of the cross on the medal bar confirmed otherwise.?hm ... watt?! Please take one more close look on your photo from 19:14, I even recognized the Schl?ssel, whatever Schl?ssel is in English ... aaah, the key ... Good eyes are the key to photos but mine are bad, maybe worst of us all here - though a Hanseatenkreuz, 100% sure ... what about the Bremen rolls? Oh, I shouldn't ask _this_ question ...... :violent: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted January 20, 2008 Author Share Posted January 20, 2008 Hmmmm,after taking a second, and a third, and a fourth look,I have to admit Sascha appears to be right. The shades misled me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 Chris,given that he was born in 1890 it seems unlikely that he would have been appointed as a Zahlmeister before 1921. The most junior Reichsheer Zahlmeister in 1922 (born 1891) was promoted to that rank in 1921. Wilhelm Manger is not listed as either a Zahlmeister or Unterzahlmeister in 1922.RegardsGlenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted January 20, 2008 Author Share Posted January 20, 2008 (edited) Chris,given that he was born in 1890 it seems unlikely that he would have been appointed as a Zahlmeister before 1921. The most junior Reichsheer Zahlmeister in 1922 (born 1891) was promoted to that rank in 1921. Wilhelm Manger is not listed as either a Zahlmeister or Unterzahlmeister in 1922.RegardsGlennAha, interesting information! So that makes it believable that he stayed in the Reichsheer during all the Weimar time, yet was not listed before TR.BTW, does anyone know whether IR 331 had a Bremen connection? Edited January 20, 2008 by webr55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted January 20, 2008 Share Posted January 20, 2008 According to British intelligence 1918, 331st was raised from V. Armeekorps area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted January 20, 2008 Author Share Posted January 20, 2008 According to British intelligence 1918, 331st was raised from V. Armeekorps area.Which makes it Silesian/Posen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Gregory Posted January 21, 2008 Share Posted January 21, 2008 Aha, interesting information! So that makes it believable that he stayed in the Reichsheer during all the Weimar time, yet was not listed before TR.BTW, does anyone know whether IR 331 had a Bremen connection?IR 331 was raised on 12 June 1915 from Besatzungs-Regiment Nr. 3 Posen (Brigade R?diger, for a ti,e designated 'Bott', Korps, Posen).I. Bataillon was formed from 4. Landsturm-Infanterie Trier (VIII. 30)II. Bataillon was formed from 1. Ers.-Btl./L.I.R. Nr. 19III. Bataillon was formed from 1. Ers.-Btl./I.R. Nr. 58, 1. Ers.-Btl./I.R. Nr. 154 and Landsturm-Kompagnie Turek (V. 41)I cannot see any connection to Bremen there, but there may be one with other units of 83. Infanterie-Division or formations that fought alongside them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted January 24, 2008 Share Posted January 24, 2008 His entry from the secret May 1939 Beamten Rangliste-- seen by nobody on Earth but Glenn since the Soviets went through those subterranean cellars in '45: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted January 24, 2008 Author Share Posted January 24, 2008 Many thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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