Fake fake red banner (NOT the rare ones!)

[bifter]

I recently was looking at the items sold by a german seller on e-bay,this guy is called 'rihard777'; he has a good reputation, & plenty of stock, but occasionally it is hard to locate his wares; the listing states there is none to be had, but with a bit of guile & patience PLENTY turn up.

Mostly these are all high end copies such as a trio of fake Khmelnitskies or Kutezovs, & Suvorovs. There are always fake October Revolutions & Friendship Orders.

What is quite disturbing is how the relativly common, & rather inexpensive Red Banner is now too being faked!!!! Also, the prices that folk pay for these copies are dreadful!!! 120 Euroes for a COPY of a Friendship Order!!!! When i was young & daft i did pay ?45 for a 1st class Glory, but since then i tremble with self disgust whenever i look at it. (The only plus side is that it was in a few films, so it has been issued & worn, even though it was only to an actor playing a Soviet Hero!!!). I wonder where these copies are made & how?! Some of them are REALY BAD!!!! I cannot show a link as i do not yet know how, but the best is the 2nd class Suvorov where it is as if he is sucking a lemon!!! He looks more like a pouting Chinese man than a Russian!

You must take a look, it is 'rihard 777'; though somtimes it comes up as 'rihard111',. but it is the same guy.

[JimZ]

I recently was looking at the items sold by a german seller on e-bay,this guy is called 'rihard777'; he has a good reputation, & plenty of stock, but occasionally it is hard to locate his wares; the listing states there is none to be had, but with a bit of guile & patience PLENTY turn up.

Mostly these are all high end copies such as a trio of fake Khmelnitskies or Kutezovs, & Suvorovs. There are always fake October Revolutions & Friendship Orders.

What is quite disturbing is how the relativly common, & rather inexpensive Red Banner is now too being faked!!!! Also, the prices that folk pay for these copies are dreadful!!! 120 Euroes for a COPY of a Friendship Order!!!! When i was young & daft i did pay ?45 for a 1st class Glory, but since then i tremble with self disgust whenever i look at it. (The only plus side is that it was in a few films, so it has been issued & worn, even though it was only to an actor playing a Soviet Hero!!!). I wonder where these copies are made & how?! Some of them are REALY BAD!!!! I cannot show a link as i do not yet know how, but the best is the 2nd class Suvorov where it is as if he is sucking a lemon!!! He looks more like a pouting Chinese man than a Russian!

You must take a look, it is 'rihard 777'; though somtimes it comes up as 'rihard111',. but it is the same guy.

Red banners have seen an increase in their market prices. Ergo, the incentive to fake. What can be faked profitably is faked, irrespective of how common or not it may be. Perhaps it is easier to be had with fakes of 'common' ODMs as sometimes, the amount of scrutiny that such ODMs get is less.

Why are you even surprised!

Jim

[Ed_Haynes]

And so long as people buy these fakes, whether intentionally or through simple lack of knowledge, the fakers and the sales venues that tolerate and encourage them will prosper and the field will grow more and more polluted with both fakes and ignorance.

It is all very depressing.

[Elmar Lang]

... I regret to say though, that making and selling of fakes, is not a new trend in the Phaleristical market...

Enzo

[JimZ]

I guess it makes buying the right stuff more rewarding for some. But its a definite off putter to those who are just starting out!

Another trend I have noticed is to flog 1985 OGPWs 1 and 2 as rare $300 awards. I wonder how many buyers are actually fooled by that. I somehow hope that any buyer who does his homework can get the same order for a fraction of the price. But the world is a big place and buyers are many.... all it takes is one.

Jim

[Ed_Haynes]

... I regret to say though, that making and selling of fakes, is not a new trend in the Phaleristical market...

Enzo

Of course it is not new, it has been around (at least in British phaleristics) since the 1870s. It has just become easier with new anonymous ways to sell and flocks of new 'collectors' who enter the shark infested waters without ever bothering to read books or articles.

[bifter]

I recently found out that my Odessa, Sevastapol & Border Guards medals are all fakes; though VERY good ones. They fooled a lot of people apparently. My Belgrade medal is a modern 'Umalatova' award; so it is a 'genuine Fake'!!!

When i was just starting out on Soviet awards i was fooled; but it took the best fakes to fool me! I feel VERY angry. They were ?95 each, except the Border Guard, which was ?45. ?330 is a lot to lose ,but i have learnt a good lesson; learnt not to trust certain dealers that may be honouable to his friends, but a theiving peice of trash to those that are new & inexperienced & unfamiliar with him. I now know why he vanished into air as soon as the medals were sold!!!! It annoys me how i even met with this filth to discuss that i was unsure about them being genuine; he gives me the dirt on how he is well known & respected amongst many auction houses around the world (which is true) etc..... I know for a fact that he is aquainted with 'Collect Russia'. Collect R has these particular fakes on his site, but i got mine 2 & a half years ago, & they were new fakes back then! I am tempted to name this wretch, but i have the thought that, just perhaps, he too was fooled by them. The way he disappeared after the sale, & the way he NEVER answers my phone calls or responds to my e-mails, texts etc.. suggests otherwise. His story was that he picked them up in Europe by a dealer at a militaria fayre, who had no idea as to what they were for , or what the values were!!! Thus he got them cheap & could pass to me cheap; Oh! He REALLY does look after the new & inexperienced in our times of vulnerability & need!!!! The theiving, scum!!!!!

[JimZ]

It is understandable to be upset about having bought fakes especially if and when you were a newbie and these come from a reputable collector or dealer. In fact I think that as far as a dealer goes, he should always be 200% sure as to what he is selling - otherwise he risks his reputation going down the tubes. We've lost enough dealers already along the years!

Whereas your last post refers to a dealer who you believe has ripped you off, I feel that there is no harm in mentioning his name and possibly, posting images of what he sold you to add substance to your claims. I do however feel that your linking him to yet another reputable dealer (Collect Russia) is not an appropriate leap as this latter dealer did not necessarily sanction the actions of the one who sold you the fakes. Collect Russia sells to many many collectors and he has no control over what these will do in turn.

On the other hand, you are making claims that dealers may have fakes on their site, then I would think that this Fakes Forum would be the appropriate area to discuss any such orders or medals. I think that you will attract sufficient feedback from other members who will then draw the necessary conclusions about the dealer/dealers in question without the need to use strong language.

Again, do not get me wrong - I do understand that you are upset. Its just the way that you have expressed yourself that is not productive. If you have doubts you can do this in a more structured and constructive manner that will not only quell any doubts that you have but will also serve to educate other collectors should their be any dealers selling fakes.

The ball is in your court to show up any medals you have doubts on and I hope, the Soviet Section will respond to your queries. It is only collectively that we can give fakers a run for their money!

Jim

[bifter]

I am NOT putting down Collect Russia!!!! I know he is a better dealer than most!!!! But this guy that ripped me off generally uses this aquaintancship as a sign of his own reputability! One of the first things he asked me was if i was aware of the 'Collect Russia' site; i said that i am very aware of it & the reputation is 100%. I was then told how he (the theiving scally dealer, not C.R.) is aquainted with C.R.!!! I took this as a good sign.

The fakes on the Collect Russia site are listed as fakes on the copies section; i am very much aware that they would certainly not put their reputation at risk by putting suspect items under the origional items listings! I brought the 'aquaintance' with C.R. up to point out to them, should they be reading this, that there is a guy out there claiming to be on good terms with them & using them to boost his own reputation. I am sure that they are aware this happens, but i doubt they would be happy to know a guy flogging fakes as genuine whist using them as a referral for 'good standards'.

I hope i have not upset them, i did not mean to!

[ilja559]

Sellers in eBay make Umalatova doks that it is better to sell fakes. Even for "Order of Victory".

If you want to buy, but do not know about originality,ask the seller to send you big medals scans and expose on a forum for discussion. Copies are sold not only in eBay but also on many other auctions. On the other hand, the medal of the Border guard costs now in Russia 350 dollars - not silver and 800 dollar - silver. If you buy this medal in eBay for 80 dollars - is naive to think that it real.

When I see the Soviet awards on sale,I send scans to colleagues from Russia and only after that I decide to buy whether or not.

[JimZ]

As an aside on Ilja's last comment:

As far as soviet awards go I consider Umalatovas to be fake soviet awards. Simple. No matter what doc may accompany them. I cannot start issuing George Crosses and Victoria Crosses even if I claim to be a self appouinted heir to the throne in exile!!! At most Umalatovas are but a collectible curiosity but never and ODM of the Soviet regime.

Just wanted to get that of my chest!

Jim

[bifter]

Are there actually Umalatova Orders of Victory?

I need to admit, the Umalatovas are better than the outright fakes; they are better made & actually have a Communist attachment to them. The bad fakes are a result of the capilist system to make quick & big cash.

I have 2 variant Umalatova Stalin orders; one is the standard 'issue', the other is a prototype, in a strange silver alloy, hot enamel, silver & gold paints & a tester ribbon similar to the zhukov medal. Both are of outstanding quality. I have pictures, but they are not good enough to post. I am still working out how to use my new camera.

I would love to see a photo list of all the Umalatovas available, & a place to buy then from!!!!!

I know they do all 3 Orders of Glory, again, REAL good quality ones, though not real gold or silver.

I guess she is doing what some of those Croat Nazis did by reproducing all the awards of her kinds heritage & issuing them to her comrades. In the early 90's, the U.N. forces aquired some Iron Crosses from the Croat forces, which were, according to news reports, manafactured specially as they had been 50 years earlier!!!!!!!!!! Would a news report lie?

[bifter]

Fakes, including the Umalatovas, make me feel dirty!! (& robbed!!)

[JimZ]

And yet you consider and actively seek them as space fillers as per recent thread http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=24798.

Isn't that a contradiction?

Jim

[ilja559]

My opinion, is better to buy one original order,than 20 Umalatova copies.

[Brian Wolfe]

I agree with ilja559 regarding the purchase of fakes as far as "fillers" in a collection is concerned. I have read other post where members have purchased copies for a uniform and I don't see a problem with that as long as the copies are marked as such. Purchasing several real top end orders to put on a half a dozen uniforms would be quite expensive indeed. It must be remembered that most if not all museums use copies in their displays. However, we are not museums.

The problem I have with copies in a collection is that there becomes a real danger that the collector will start to add more and more copies until the collection is basically watered down to a few authentic specimens and the bulk consisting of copies. You can spend a lot on "filling holes" with items never issued to actual soldiers (or non-military personnel) and you have to ask yourself "WHY? If you want a complete collection to look at then purchase a good quality poster picturing all of the medals from that particular country. Better to be able to actually hold a real medal in your hand that was actually issued to those who served.

Most of us feel we are preserving artfacts for future generations, I know that's my (deluded?) view of my collection. Better to preserve a few true artifacts than dozens of cuncks of junk medal.

Here's something to think about.

About a year ago a member posted his collection of TR items. I know very little about TR so I stay away from those items, for the most part. His collection was flawless and very top end. Not knowing what is and is not a copy I thought that perhaps he had purchased fakes by the dozens. I followed the thread for months and no member ever questioned the collection. They praised it but never questioned its authenticity. I was blown away to think this was a collection of authentic TR top end orders. My point is that if you use "fillers" and are like me (not rich) you run the risk of people thinking your whole collection of garbage, including the real ones.

End of today's rant.

Cheers

Brian

[Ed_Haynes]

There have been some good points made here, but also some fairly childish outbursts.

A fake is a fake. If a replica of any award is made that has the fraudulent maker's mark and a fraudulent serial number it is -- guess what? -- a fraud, a fake, a lie. Such things -- whether made expertly or not -- are made to deceive, to assert with a maker's mark and a serial number that the award is real. They are also made to separate fools from their funds and constitute poison in the communal phaleristic well. Whether this sad practice is illegal or not, it is unethical and immoral. It is the act of a crook and to defend this is to crawl into their sewer.

If a faked medal has the word copy (in whatever language) and no maker's mark, then it is a replica, dirty but not fully sewer-worthy. Having recently gotten into uniforms, I see the need to find replica medals to "dress" the uniform. I would see it as inapproproiate and disrespectful to place someone else's medals onto the uniform of a stranger. In obtaining copies, if I am forced to adopt fakes (Kapral krap for example), I shall soon act to scratch out the serial number, obliterate the maker's mark, and name these for what they are in deep letters engraved on the reverse "F A K E".

The idea that one needs fakes to "fill the blanks" is disturbing. None of us, I expect, will (or should) ever have an Order of Victory. Live with it. To be consumed by a wish to do so would be to collect like a novice coin- or stamp-collector (both items without history), merely trying to get one of each to fill the blanks in the album. But would they tolerate the introduction of poisonus faked stamps or coins to fill their "gaps"? I suspect any serious collector could answer that question with ease. And I would hope that collectors are scholars and not interior decorators, trying to "complete the frame".

To confuse the Umalatova awards with fakes misses, I think, their point and their interest. They are artifacts of history, politics, and sociology in their own right, slightly more legitimate than the "orders" still awarded (against payment) by the dispossed "royal" families of pre-1918 Europe.

[JimZ]

To confuse the Umalatova awards with fakes misses, I think, their point and their interest. They are artifacts of history, politics, and sociology in their own right, slightly more legitimate than the "orders" still awarded (against payment) by the dispossed "royal" families of pre-1918 Europe.

Partially conceded. I however do not consider Umalatova to have any real acceptable political basis to make any claims at being the continuation of the Soviet regime. I think that the Eastern block and particularly the countries in the ex USSR have gone their own ways with their own "democracies" (pardon my quothe marks!) without paying her too much attention. But then again I confess myself not being well versed enough in her real raison d'etre and I may be missing her point. But then again, aren't all the ex USSR countries also missing her point?

At least with Royal families there were blood lines ... an arguable but somehow acceptable (at the time and even nowadays) way of carrying and transferring power throughout generations. Revolutions may interrupt the flow of power but the bloodlines (for better or for worse) remain.

And how would we feel about a self appointed successor of any other deposed regime (and I will not mention specific ones as this should not spiral into a political discussion) dishing out orders and awards of the former regime? And that is why I also conceded that:

... At most Umalatovas are but a collectible curiosity but never an ODM of the Soviet regime.

Jim