saschaw Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 (edited) Salut Gentlemen, I got this worn but nice old ribbon bar about two weeks ago (on 31st of january) from an old collector who had it in his drawer and isn't too much about ribbon bars, so I could get it for a good price ... It contains EK II, the knight's cross with swords of the (royal) Hohenzollern house order, a Ehrenkreuz with swords of the principal Hohenzollern house order and a Zähringer knight with X - which makes it look like a Leutant/Oberleutnant, maybe from FR 40 in Rastatt - but the last ribbon is for a Zähringer Verdienstkreuz, a NCO award that was given for e.g. 30 or 40 years NCO service in peace times. How can this make sense ... ? May he have gotten this for any civil (or) pre war merit, or might it rather be "close enough"?! I have no doubt on the bar itself, it's a nice war time or post war bar, pre 1934 with nice massive hook on reverse and well worn ... PS: please don't PM me on it as it won't be sold. Edited April 20, 2023 by saschaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Hmmmmm. Obviously this is a "short" fashion statement bar, with long service and ??? else simply left off for Decorations Only. Presumably this would be an extremely highly decorated Leutnant der Landwehr type....I don't find any combination HOH3X, HE3X, BZ3bX who turns up with a BZ4--peacetime OR wartime on MKFVO ribbon.SOMEBODY should probably go look for a COMPLETE BZ4 list at the Archives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted February 14, 2008 Author Share Posted February 14, 2008 (edited) Rick Research said: SOMEBODY should probably go look for a COMPLETE BZ4 list at the Archives. That sound's like autumn/fall job for dark long evenings, but it's son getting spring ... I'm absolutely not convinced this has to be a "short" bar. Zähringer without oak leaves is most likely Leutnant/Oberleutnant, what pre war awards should he have? No long service, not 1897 medal, even no 1902 medal if he startet service about 1903 or post. No pre war awards are the rule for a Baden officer with about ten years service in 1914. But the last ribbon, hmmm ... I've got an idea that I believe to be quite good: in 1909(?) the Grand Duke of Luxemburg made a visit to Karlsruhe, and as usual he left many orders here, even to Leutnants or Oberleutnants that had nothing by now and wouldn't get any more decorations untill the war starts - I think this is a "oak crown" close enough, seems much more likely than a civil/pre war Zähringer merit cross ... what do you think? *we had this issue with the Luxemburger on another bar from mine, which has Hohenzollern, Baden Karl Friedrich and Zähringer and nothing more from which one of the possible suspects could be excluded because of his pre war Luxemburg order. ** now tell me, am I good or am I bad? Edited April 20, 2023 by saschaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Hmmm. Luxemburg issued awards (after the war) to subjects who had served with the Allies, so would an "enemy" award be worn on a wrtime bar?I don't find anybody (there aren't many) with a LEK5 who could match.Did you order my very nice Hohenzollern rolls book from Daniel, so my 16 year old cat won't go hungry? BTW... who ever goes to the Archive should go in the nice long sunny summer... scratchy Sutterlin is NOT fun in the dark! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 Are you sure about that last ribbon?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deruelle Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Hi Sascha, I found only 5 names of officers from FR Nr. 40 who received EK2, HHO3X, HE3X and BZ3bX Leutnant Garbsch Walter HeinrichLeutnant Reinhard EmilLeutnant Schrader WilhelmLeutnant Stahl KarlLeutnant Thyssen FranzThat's all for the moment. I will do more research tomorrowChristophe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted February 18, 2008 Author Share Posted February 18, 2008 (edited) Stogieman, I'm sure it is a BZL4 ribbon, but I'm not sure if it really supposed to stand for this award ... Christophe, many thanks: I think without knowledge if this really is a peace time BZL4 in last place one cannot get further. I actually don't know if it is from a officer from FR40, but those are very likley with a Hohenzollern-Baden combination. Were there any other regiments with that? Edited April 20, 2023 by saschaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 The dirt and stain on this bar makes me wonder if the last place ribbon is something other than what it appears. If you visualize this main color as white, a very dirty white, you now have what looks like the ribbon for a Saxon ZVO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Gregory Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 The dirt and stain on this bar makes me wonder if the last place ribbon is something other than what it appears. If you visualize this main color as white, a very dirty white, you now have what looks like the ribbon for a Saxon ZVOI thought the same when I first saw the bar, but then discounted the idea due to the difference between the lighter colour of the last ribbon and the white of the Hohenzollern ribbon. But different ribbons may lose their colour in different ways.Is it possible to see any of the clean ribbon beneath the backing?Is there a published roll for the Saxon ZVO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 A solo peacetime Saxon Merit Order wouldn't make sense for a non-Saxon very much frontline combat officer. As an initial award, that usually went to administrative officials, who generally skipped the Albert Order.Green's a tough color on old German bars. Like many shades of blue, the color fastness hasn't held up to going on a century's age, now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 (edited) It's a small world in the end, isn't it? This one came up today in a German forum, and I realized we were a bit wrong. That's why ribbon bar questions sometimes just cannot be answered! I looked through the very nice Hohenzollern volume but could not find him immediately... Now anyone who can find him? The medal bar owner would be very glad too. Edited April 20, 2023 by saschaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 :Cat-Scratch: AIYIIII THAT is a combination no Research Gnome ever even considered. Re-calibrating parameters.....Nobody named Aa.... to Fl....PS That has GOT to be a wartime BZ4-- or he would have gotten the HEK4bX and not the HE5aX.AIYIIII Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Nobody named Aa... to Me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted June 8, 2009 Author Share Posted June 8, 2009 (edited) Hum, seems to be a more difficult one? Thanks in advance, Rick! Rick Research said: PS That has GOT to be a wartime BZ4-- or he would have gotten the HEK4bX and not the HE5aX. Very good point I ignored... Edited April 20, 2023 by saschaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I've been comparing Hohenzollern Gold Medals X with BZ3bX (because of the problems with the wretched no first names HOH3X rolls-- so will look there LAST) and up to Lt dL II Paul Richter of LIR 109, no match.He had HEg5aX and BZ3bX, but Zauberdaniel has him with EK1 and Wound Badge and Baden SVM on war ribbon, period.Unless we get VERY lucky this one will fail because of the DAMNED Prussians and no first names/units on the HOH3X Roll to match.I bet whoever split the medal bar and ribbon bar threw the Urkunden away. :banger: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 I guess Daniel has a picture of this Lt dL II Paul Richter. Did you made it up to Richter, alphabetically, and might I find him in the left ones from R to Z? Or have you done this in the meantime? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David M Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 BTW... who ever goes to the Archive should go in the nice long sunny summer... scratchy Sutterlin is NOT fun in the dark!And its really nice and cool in the Archives as well.....but then again, I cannot stand 25+ C myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I've searched between the gold Hohenzollern Medal X and BZ3bX from Aa to Sauter, Alfred and no match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Finished looking for matches HE5aX and BZ3bX== no other matches.HE5aX and BZ4-- up to Flister-- no match.I am more and more coming to believe that the gold Hohenzollern Medal has been swapped out for either the Merit Cross X or 3rd Class of that Honor Cross.Sascha-- why not concentrate on trying to match BZ3bX AND a BZ4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 (edited) That's odd. In the meantime I came to know the medal bar came from the same collector I have my ribbon bar from. A small world, as I said. I guess I swap the ribbon bar for another one, for a small reunification. Thanks for your tries, Rick. The BZ3bX is replaced, I came to know. He did not mention the medal, but I'll ask... Rick Research said: Sascha-- why not concentrate on trying to match BZ3bX AND a BZ4? Is there a published list of BZ4? Or do you mean BZ4M? Edited April 20, 2023 by saschaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Even though there is no device on the Verdienstkreuz ribbon, it's got to be a wartime one..,either that or this bar has been so TOTALLY screwed around with that we are trying to "identify" randomly replaced pieces.My main reason for thinking it MUST be a wartime one is that there is no long service award on here. I cannot imagine a pre-war reservist/civil servant who got one BEFORE the war and yet had military status "downgraded" that would have earned him the Hohenzollern MEDAL. (And if a senior career low level Baden civil servant/reservist... where is his 1902 Jubilee Medal?) There are NO published peacetime Baden Rolls AT ALL. ---->I think I detect a "market niche" for Research Gnomery. :catjava: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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