Tim Tezer Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 The Article by Peter Sauerwald and Claus Zimmerling that was published in the BDOS journal a few years ago didn't really shed any light on the issue, except to charge that a host of these spanges out there are actually fakes. That is entirely possible, and I can't say that I can sort out the confusion myself, but I certainly wouldn't take all of the authors' contentions at face value. First of all, they illustrate an example as "original" that has no beading on the frame of the Iron Cross, which as PK has pointed out is - well, highly unusual. Secondly, the article seems to imply that there is only ONE original type, which to me is patently false. It's my understanding (from Freidhelm Heyde's book) that there were no issued examples at all; recipients only got a document giving them authorization to wear it. What's more, the vast majority of those recipients would have had their medals mounted on a parade bar, necessitating a prong-mounted spange, rather than one with a slide. Jorg Nimmergut's book implies that "originals" all had a slide, and prong-backed pieces were private purchase, but that statement is meaningless if we accept the Freidhelm Heyde/Max Aurich contention that they were ALL private purchase. Am I making a mistaken assumption? Were there really any "awarded" examples, or were they all private purchase by definition?Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Y Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 The Article by Peter Sauerwald and Claus Zimmerling that was published in the BDOS journal a few years ago didn't really shed any light on the issue, except to charge that a host of these spanges out there are actually fakes. That is entirely possible, and I can't say that I can sort out the confusion myself, but I certainly wouldn't take all of the authors' contentions at face value. First of all, they illustrate an example as "original" that has no beading on the frame of the Iron Cross, which as PK has pointed out is - well, highly unusual. Secondly, the article seems to imply that there is only ONE original type, which to me is patently false. It's my understanding (from Freidhelm Heyde's book) that there were no issued examples at all; recipients only got a document giving them authorization to wear it. What's more, the vast majority of those recipients would have had their medals mounted on a parade bar, necessitating a prong-mounted spange, rather than one with a slide. Jorg Nimmergut's book implies that "originals" all had a slide, and prong-backed pieces were private purchase, but that statement is meaningless if we accept the Freidhelm Heyde/Max Aurich contention that they were ALL private purchase. Am I making a mistaken assumption? Were there really any "awarded" examples, or were they all private purchase by definition?TimUntil someone comes up with an issue packet, or, better yet, box with one of Willi's moustache hairs stuck to it and a DNA match I guess we'll never know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKeating Posted February 13, 2006 Share Posted February 13, 2006 (edited) According to a General Headquarters order dated 4.6.1915, quoted in Gordon Williamson's first book on the Iron Cross back in 1984, "Owners of the Iron Cross Second Class of 1870-1871 who have earned during the present war, in combat or at home, the same decoration for special services, will get a special silver clasp or bar which will be attached to the ribbon of the Iron Cross above the Silver Jubilee Oakleaves. The bar bears a miniature of the Iron Cross and the date 1914..." This was an addendum to Wilhelm II's order of 5.8.1914 reinstituting the Iron Cross. Anyway, here is my Wagner WHS. Examination under the loup reveals fine enamel work of the standard one would expect from this firm and all the correct marks on the reverse. I bought the ensemble off a non-militaria-related stall in a flea market in New York a few years ago for $250.00. There were a few things there. I shan't be chucking this WHS in the fakes box on the strength of this article. But I think we ought to be ready for a rash of WHS resembling the one touted as genuine! LOL! PK Edited January 11, 2013 by Chris Boonzaier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe campbell Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 PK...the WHS...the oaks....the EK.... LOVE that EK!!!a beautiful set!thanks for the pix/comments.joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe campbell Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 this is one of my two examples, and this therarer of the two.~ 660 made by the berlin mint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe campbell Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 reverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 ....... As I am sure many of you know, the document is the award, in German military culture, while the medal merely signifies that the wearer possesses the document. Prosper, thanks for this reminder. Many folks forget that the -document- was more important than the medal itself. In some cases, the bestowal of an royal order came with a knighthood, annual stiped, or other benefits and to claim any entitlement, the document had to be used to support that claim. Awards won while in uniform were supposed to be verified by an entry in the Soldbuch or Wehrpass, and the Urkunde kept safely at home.Les(another friend of Chuck W's, although not a Maine rock crawler....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian von Etzel Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 (edited) I doubt this is all a conspiracy to make us nervous and seek COA's on everything we buy OK, maybe it's just one step in that direction... But bottom line, you done this long enough handled enough, the one PK shows and I have, no doubts here. Why so many? Let's count 'em guys. I think still less than a thousand accounted for. You'll find the Nellies who will tell you about painted on patina, great, but this is not an example of painted on patina. Edited February 14, 2006 by Brian von Etzel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Y Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 Joe, that 1 piece job. After an initial bout of knee-jerk paranoia I'm perfectly content with mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biro Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 I bought the ensemble off a non-militaria-related stall in a flea market in New York a few years ago for $250.00. PKPKThen you've done well......it's absolutely identical (but slightly shinier) twin was sold by Collectors Guild a few months ago for about $700.00.The ribbon even has the same strange looking 'burn' holes in it - possibly from some form of pronged attatchment.Is this comforting or concerning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKeating Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 They are certainly identical twins, the patina of the crosses aside! The holes in my ribbon match the prongs on the WHS so I think someone must have removed it and then replaced in a different position at some point. The crosses are obviously by the same maker, like the Oakleaves and the WHS. The crosses could date from around the 1895 anniversary but I think they are probably from the 1914-1918 period. Crosses from the 1870s and 1880s tend to look like this nice example below. PK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKeating Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 Joe Campbell's EK1 conversion is very interesting. It is certainly non-regulation given that the WHS signifies a second award of the 1870 EK2 and must have been done by someone who could get away with wearing it either by dint of being too senior to be collared about it or in retirement. It is beautifully done. PK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe campbell Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 (edited) PK is spot on re: origin. this would have been someone with some "weight" who got this made.i wish there was more information on it...i went back to my one reference on this piece. there were~859 made at the Berlin Mint, with the markings"crown/moon/800" on the reverse. these were made from june-november 1915, and the piece weighs inat 25.1 gms.thanks!joe Edited February 14, 2006 by joe campbell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Tezer Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 i went back to my one reference on this piece. there were~859 made at the Berlin Mint, with the markings"crown/moon/800" on the reverse. these were made from june-november 1915, and the piece weighs inat 25.1 gms.Joe,Which book has this info in it? Not that I have any space left on my bookshelf, but if it's worth having, I might be able squeeze the books in a little tighter.Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe campbell Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 the "reference" is actually an unpublished,on-going catalogue of Dr. William Hamelman.he has photographed/weighed/researchedseveral thousand pieces he's had in his collectionover the years.i'd LOVE to publish it some day!joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony J Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 (edited) Hello Joe,A very interesting arrangement of the WHS attached to a EKI.I was offered an 1870 EKI several years ago with the same arrangement except the pin on the reverse was the twin pin type with two opposing catches that is shown in Previtera's book. I believe that I still ahve the picture of the one offered to me. I have also seen this style with the 1957 spange attached to a '57 era 1914 EKI. One of the more prominent German dealers had it for sale recently.Anyway..................There is one fundimental problem that needs to be discussed about the set you show. Please keep in mind that the WHS was a later addendum to the 1870 EKII as a second award in a subsiquent war. While the merits can be debated about a apnge attached to an 1870 EKI the fact that your spange is attached to an 1914 EKI is improper. If anything it should be attached to an 1870 EKI. Even then there are sceptics of that arrangement being proper.I only say this as I think that this fact needs to be looked at further.Just some thoughts.Tony Edited February 14, 2006 by Tony J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKeating Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 Good point. Howver, given that the ensemble is totally irregular, might it not have been concocted by a winner of the 1870 EK2 who then received the 1914 EK1 and subsequently wished to mark the fact by attaching his WHS to his 1914 EK1? After all, he would not have received a 1914 EK2, would he? And the WHS has nothing to do with the EK1. It is a 2nd Class award. He would have received the WHS. Whatever the case, it is a private confection and one that would only be tolerated in the case of a relatively powerful serving soldier or a veteran in civilian clothes or a veterans' association uniform. By the way, we know that the WHS was worn on the ribbons of court-mounted crosses but could it also have been worn on ribbons through uniform buttonholes in the manner of the devices worn on Prussian order ribbons? PK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian von Etzel Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 I have a problem with it attached to an EKI but can imagine an old vet winning the EKI in '14 and having the Spange and just 'doing it'. Tony, absolutely improper but not necessarily 'bad'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony J Posted February 14, 2006 Share Posted February 14, 2006 Brian,I am somewhat undecided about the 'bad'. Improper ? Absolutely! Kind of like a powerful serving soldier, a general perhaps, putting oakleaves on his Grand Cross. Mix and match was not the order of the day then or now.I just find it very curious that I have seen this arrangement of a WHS on both an 1870 and now a 1914 EKI. Similar one piece backs. Also the same construction on currently available '57 EKIs with the 1939 bar. Nice idea but I would really like to see a period photo of one like that in wear.Prosper,I find your question about a WHS being worn on the ribbon in the button hole intreging. Finding a period picture of that arrangement would seem somewhat easier than the WHS on an EKI. Possible? Maybe Probable? I'm not sure.Good thoughts gentlemen.Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian von Etzel Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Mixing and matching certainly weird but these guys were OLLLLLLLLDDDD.You mean like this in the buttonhole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony J Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Looks like it could be what I asked for eh?Can you post a closeup of just the fellow wearing that bar on his button hole ribbon?Thanks!Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brian von Etzel Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Here's another one. If you look very very closely you'll see the cat's paw, the beading, it's all there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKeating Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Thank you, Brian! Terrific images. They appear to be from period journals/magazines. The second image appears to be a detail from a photograph of quite a senior man. I always felt that the WHS must have been worn in this manner but had never seen any photographic evidence until now. Interesting, too, to see the 1895 Oakleaves worn like this. PK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Now that's an exceptionally interesting photograph! Thanks Brian! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted February 15, 2006 Share Posted February 15, 2006 Made me forget what I wanted to say....I've only had a couple of these that IMO were legit. Both bore the full Wagner marks. I have never seen one with moon/crown/800 only.Can anybody show an example with only these marks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now