Medal bar with foreign awards

[Noor]

Hello all,

I got today stunning 9 place medal bar! I would like to get some extra information about that. Is there any chance to track it because Belgium and Spain orders, also two campain awards?

it is confusing medal bar. To me its look like NCO medal bar because there is not Imperial orders, same time lots of servise. But same time he was probably army doctor because the Prussia red cross medals? Same time he had combat EK2.

Maybe someone can help me "to read" it!

[Stogieman]

Picture of the back please...

[saschaw]

A GREAT bar if it is 100% okay and not played with or worse.

It has some deatils I really like as well as some I don't ... better poictures of the insane rare Jerusalem cross would be nice, too.

[Noor]

Extra pictures will come tomorrow. On the back is gray backing and metal maker label "J.Godet & Sohn".

[Paul C]

what are the last 3 medals? The JK know. This maybe tracable.

[Guest Rick Research]

Your scan is NOT downloading, so all I see is THIS:

Assuming that some of you HAVE actually been able to see the whole thing--

a Jerusalem Cross should NOT be sandwiched between two foreign awards. Excxlude that from any attempts at identification.

This is a Reserve or Landwehr officer's group, but not necessarily medical. The Godet trademark backing means we have no clue whether this is army or navy.

[Guest Rick Research]

I have replaced your remote image hosting site scan-- your settings are WRONG for whatever you are doing-- this is a TINY scan yet your KB size was too big even for me to post here. I have copied yours through "Paint" and it is less than half the size your image's KB size was and still is exactly the same VIEWED size as yours.

PLEASE get an Epson scanner!!!!!

The Belgian Civic Decoration Silver Medal is never shown in army Rank Lists at all, so that is "invisible." By 1914 it was shown in the Navy Rank Lists, but I couldn't find a naval holder of one on a quick flip through.

The Spanish Order of Isabella the Catholoc should make this traceable, if BOTH the Prussian Red Cross Medals were pre-war awards. The bronze class certainly was. Before the war, these were more likely to have been given to non-medical people who had supported the Red Cross by volunteering (i.e. NOT doctors) and donations as they were during the war for hospital related work.

Such a unique combination "should" be identifiable--

but the Jerusalem Cross and Belgian awards were not listed in German Rank Lists-- so the ODDEST and most distinctive things here simply are not going to show on what could be "LD2, Pr RKM3, SJ3" listing in 1914.

Do not give up hope, but this will not be easy without some luck. I already checked the medical dR and dL officers in Berlin(Godet made ) in 1914 and no match there.

[Guest Rick Research]

I am back, having spent the time since last posting confirming

1) Not a NAVAL group, from the 1914 Rank List

2) Not a military Beamter's bar (no 1897)

3) Not a Prussian army Landwehr officer in the 1914 Rank List

4) not a Reserve medical officer in the 1914 Rank List

if there is no match from the combatant regimental dR officers in 1914, then this fellow retired from reserve duty by 1913/14 so that annual Lists BACKWARDS from 1913 will have to be checked-- thousands of pages-- until he appears with that SJ3 listed.

[Paul C]

Rick, I am out of town but check my list (you know whcih one) for a SWA and China and JK. There were 4 or 5 guys on the list who had a JK.

[hipnos]

Rick, I am out of town but check my list (you know whcih one) for a SWA and China and JK. There were 4 or 5 guys on the list who had a JK.

As long as I know, the Isabella Order is not an award to NCO or OR men...so The award can came afterwards when the man is outside the army and can be give for some charity & social labour that derserves it. The same thing can be said on the Jerusalem Cross and the Belgian civic cross (howhever the ribbon is for civic valou)r. So, you can think too on a low rank foreing office official, ex NCO...

Miguel

PS/ If we can see a zoom of the Isabella Order, I could tell you the award?s period

[Guest Rick Research]

This is the best I can do with somebody else's scan, given the primitive technology I have. That is why it is always better to do it the FIRST time:

Even enlarged, this is smaller KB size than the original remote-linked by Noor. Don't forget that ANY colored background is a complete waste of KB size with zero added for the actual image.

The more I look at this, even reverse still not seen, the more I like it. That sideways clip for the Jerusalem Cross (it's suspension loop has been replaced to attach there) and the way these line up all look good to me. The patina from decades of not being moved, with the awards correctly RIGHT side up/exposed and their LEFT sides under the preceding award (overlapped opposite to the way they are shown here) is also consistent with real age.

This will be a VERY frustrating bar to identify because so much was never LISTED in Rank Lists.

Paul-- no match on the two stay at homes--or even with just one-- and a Jerusalem. This guy didn't list himself in the Orders Almanach.

Some sort of frontline combat army landwehr officer with a VERY odd civilian day job!!!!

[hipnos]

This is the best I can do with somebody else's scan, given the primitive technology I have. That is why it is always better to do it the FIRST time:

Even enlarged, this is smaller KB size than the original remote-linked by Noor. Don't forget that ANY colored background is a complete waste of KB size with zero added for the actual image.

The more I look at this, even reverse still not seen, the more I like it. That sideways clip for the Jerusalem Cross (it's suspension loop has been replaced to attach there) and the way these line up all look good to me. The patina from decades of not being moved, with the awards correctly RIGHT side up/exposed and their LEFT sides under the preceding award (overlapped opposite to the way they are shown here) is also consistent with real age.

This will be a VERY frustrating bar to identify because so much was never LISTED in Rank Lists.

Paul-- no match on the two stay at homes--or even with just one-- and a Jerusalem. This guy didn't list himself in the Orders Almanach.

Some sort of frontline combat army landwehr officer with a VERY odd civilian day job!!!!

Hello!

IMHO, the Isabella order is sowing ther reverse, the anverse side must have both hemispherium with the Hercule?s columns and the moto (difficult to read for its size): "Plus Ultra" (translate freely like. "More earth abroad"..) and a ship (carabela).

The type of the crown over the King Fernando (F) and Queen Isabel (I) is dterminant to know is this is an award from Before (Royal crown) or after 1939 (imperial crown)

Regards

Miguel

[Noor]

Some better photos now:

[Noor]

[Noor]

[Noor]

[Noor]

LS cross centre is damaged:

Edited March 2, 2008 by Noor

[saschaw]

Thanks, now _these_ pictures should help. The bar itself _is_ good, no doubt about it - nice war time or early 1920s bar made by Godet. I don't like the Jerusalem cross - neither the cross and nor that there is such a cross on this bar, at this position. A red ribbon an a large German bar, 2nd to last place and sandwitched by two foreign awards should actually be - yes, something foreign, too. I've got no idea if Austrian, French, or whatever - but not a Jerusalem Cross.

PS: though one of the best and most interresting bars I've seen for a while ...

[hipnos]

Extraordinary Bar...The Isabel la catolica order is a Knightly class, from the Alfonso XIII kingdom (1885- 1931). A good piece...

It?s an indiscrection to ask how much it cost to you..?

greetings

Miguel

[Noor]

Can someone help me with the Jerusalem cross please. What was the awarding criterias, when was it established, etc. I tried to find information from internet but not much luck at all so far.

Also any new ideas about the owner?

Saschaw... I think the Jerusalem cross is not a replacement.

Can someone explain to me why LS cross is between two Red Cross medals? Why III class is not front of it?

Lots of questions but I hope you guys can help me.

Best regards,

Noor

[Guest Rick Research]

Absolutely correct precedence for Prussia before the Third Reich. Go down below the illustration and you will see the Prussian and Reichs rules and how they changed over time:

<a href="http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?autocom=galler...=si&img=862" target="_blank">http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?autocom=galler...=si&img=862</a>

Other states' regulations are alongside in that section of the ribbon bar work in progress.

I am not sure about the Jerusalem Cross. It should NOT be in that spot-- not at all correct the way the "Red Cross sandwich" is. It may well be a replacement for something else, which is why I advise IGNORING it in any attempt to identify the owner. The way the suspension clip is mounted on that ribbon indicates that whatever was supposed to hang there had an odd ring like the Jerusalem Cross (Spangenst?ck?) that is on there now.

What is ABSOLUTELY KEY here-- and is invisible to German Rank Lists is the Belgian lifesaving award.

Try try try to find some sort of pre-1914 "Gazette Officiel" or whatever it was called listing for a German recipient.

[saschaw]

The Red Cross medals are usually sandwiched with something else. I've seen it often but still don't know why and what would sandwich them - apparently "anthing" would do.

Are the Jerusalem Cross' medaillons real gold or gilt? They should be _gold_ for a good one. Those crosses have been heavily faked since (I guess) the 70s and hardly ever found as real ones, especially on such a bar. The Prussian experts should be able to help, with these or maybe better pictures. From what I know, the cross was given to those who were with the Kaiser in Jerusalem in 1898. As I said, others sould see if good or bad, my feeling for it is'n good, but yet just a feeling.

[Ulsterman]

Just as an aside-there seems to be some photographic evidence and medal bars out there that clearly show that the Red Cross awards made during the war were treated as war decorations-and thus, moved towards the front of the bar, ahead of peacetime merit and campaign/membership awards.

I am wondering if the Wilhelminian Jerusalem Cross there , if it is incorrect, (isn't there a roll of these out there?) may have replaced or been used instead of the Vatican's Jerusalem cross , which seems to have been awarded to Catholic pilgrims and those who gave some sort of service to the Holy See in the Trans-Jordan area.

[saschaw]

[...] may have replaced or been used instead of the Vatican's Jerusalem cross , which seems to have been awarded to Catholic pilgrims and those who gave some sort of service to the Holy See in the Trans-Jordan area.

If you mean that one I think, you're wrong. That has a very different ribbon, as you can see here. But there are sooooo many awards on a red ribbon ...

[Ulsterman]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Oh well.

They are still sold/handed out at some monestarys in Israel. I have friends on the Ashkalon digs who were 'awarded" them; I was very jealous.

In the old days, when travel was tougher, this may have actually meant something more.

Edited March 7, 2008 by Ulsterman