Another impossible ribbon bar?

[christerd]

Hi, what about this monster bar ?

A Saschen Hero or just a "piece of junk" put together bar?

All the best from Sweden (cold and snowing right now.....)

Christer

[Guest Rick Research]

Is it yours or is it for sale Out There? PM me.

[Stogieman]

It's a rough one for sure... but the combination is .... interesting ....

Construction and materials look consistent with a real bar

[HeikoGrusdat]

after a first look this one makes sense I think...great bar

[Bayoswede]

I got it !!

Now can someone tell me who this Saxon hero was! And what is the medals on his bar???

Christer

[Guest Rick Research]

Here he is, circa 1913:

Though perhaps best known under his stage name Patrick McNee co-starring as "Steed" in the 1960s British TV series "The Avengers" with young Diana Rigg as "Mrs Peel," he was actually

KURT Ludwig Karl BRAMSCH

autograph on back of the photo:

born 15 February 1876 in Teplitz, Bohemia

Leutnant 21.7.97

Oberleutnant 22.4.05

Hauptmann 23.9.11

Major ernannt 26.3.17/Patent 21.5.17

zD 7.3.19 and aD 31.3.20

Saxe Ernestine House Order-Knight 1st Class (ribbon with gold crown device) 25.8.12 from Altenburg***

1897 Centenary Medal

Saxon Albert Order-Knight 1st X 18.6.15

Crown to that 9.12.15

Sazon Merit Order-Knight 1st Class is NOT listed and therefore a "lost" 1918 award-- all else matches ONLY to him

Saint Henry Order-Knight 10.5.16 for 15.2.16, when RGR 100/ XII. ResKps was under attack by the French after a prolonged and heavy artillery barrage. Captain Bramsch led his battalion in these vital hours "with outstanding cold-bloodedness and by his heroic example" hardened his troops into withstanding the attack. The unspoken implication is that they were wavering and MIGHT have failed to hold if he had not kept them in the line by his own example.

***Saxe Ernestine House Order, Xs to Knight 1st (he should have RETURNED the peacetime one, naughty man) from Altenburg 20.7.15 and

Meiningen War Honor Cross 6.9.16

(Good thing I transcribed all those award rolls, now available from a Friendly Co-Author Nearest You, huh? )

In K.S. J?ger Bataillon 12 when the war started

Transferred to K.S. Reserve J?ger Bataillon 12 June 1915

Transferred as Battalion Commander to K.S. Resere Grenadier Rgt 100 in February 1916

ending his career as Adjutant at the Generalkommando XII. Armeekorps-- probably wounded and on home duty for that reason.

[Guest Rick Research]

Now, here is his 1912/15 entry from The Master Roll as transcribed by Yrs Truly and published by Daniel and me just last month in a form that Normal People can read:

The check mark is the Roll Keeper's notation that an Order had been returned. Note that since this was kept in Meiningen, the date differs from Altenburg's actual bestowal date in 1912 to when Meiningen found out about it. (It gets weird, in these rolls. )

Under the bizarre standard German practice of replacing a peacetime class award with its wartime in the same grade--thus making two separate and distinct awards into 1 , he SHOULD have retruned the EH3a when he was granted the EH3aX.

So what's it doing on his ribbon bar circa 1934/35?

I'd say he'd gone out and gotten himself a duplicate and was wearing what he felt he was entitled to. He was entitled to both. Whatever he earned the 1912 one for had nothing to do with 1915.

This "discrepancy" aside, only the absence of a LISTING for him in the published roll for the SV3aX in 3rd place is "off" from this combination.

There is no other match.

By 1918, Saxony had actually run out of Orders and was awarding only award Urkunden. PUBLICATION of awards ceased early in that year, leaving months and months without any record of awards. He had been decorated by Saxony 4 times 1915-16... and an SV3aX was the only thing LEFT that he could have earned for 1916-18.

The presence of the atypical 1897 Medal on here only further confirms that although he was not SUPPOSED to have worn BOTH Ernestines...

that is his bar.

Nobody else had this unique combination.

[Bayoswede]

Thanks Rick, you are the Greatest!!

And you are right, he do look like McNee ....

And now I have ask myself why I didn?t bought the Saxon band XXIX band , perhaps Daniel has a copy left?

Think if naughty Kurt could now what interest hes old ribbon bar caused about 70 years after

I kind of like the "against all rules" , putting hes 1912 EH3a on the bar.

Now I can go to bed ( it?s 23.00 in Sweden) and dreaming of...... yes Diana Rigg !

All the best from Sweden, good night

Christer

[Guest Rick Research]

Noooooo. All the OLD volumes are GONE.

They have to be re-done.

If we live long enough.

Unfortunately for us, all of Erhard Roth's lifelong Saxon stuff was thrown away when he died, so we will have to start all over again from the beginning.

Nice theme song that had too. Now I can't get it out of my head.....

[Sachsen]

Hello,

doing some family-tree research we found our ancestor Kurt Bramsch on GMIC!

We were very astonished about the knowledge and investigative power of the members.

Maybe our comment is of interest for you, because we can confirm that your results are absolutely correct.

We asked us if the long way of the ribbon-bar to Sweden can be reconstructed.

Of course, we are interested in any additional information about Kurt Bramsch.

Sachsen

[christerd]

fantastic! it is not often that à ribbon bar like this could be given à name, and it even more unusual that relatives hear of it

The bar was bought on EBAY some years ago, and is probably from 1934-1935 . Where it has been between 1935 and 1995 is à mystery. if you have more info about him I would be grateful to hear about it. Best erfaras from the north of Europe Christer

[Sachsen]

Hello Christerd,

thanks very much for the reply!

Ebay, I guess ebay-Germany, which region lives the seller?

I try to post a foto of the bar with all the orders (hope I can do that without almost no GMIC-forum-expirience) .

Beside this bar we have almost no information about Kurt Bramsch. Only one civil foto from him. So we are very happy to find the foto posted on GMIC.

Do you also have this foto or other fotos from him? Or did you hear from the documents belonging to the orders? What means 1934 - 1935, do you think the bar was built up in this years?

Sachsen

[christerd]

Hallo Sachsen ,

Yes it was bought on German Ebay three years ago, I will see if I can find out where the seller came from

I have never seen any documents or more photos and I don´t think there were any at the same auction.

Why I belive its from the 1934-35 period is because the 7th ribbon , that is the "Ehrenkreuze für Frontkämpfer" and was inaugurated on July 13, 1934 by Reichspräsident Paul von Hindenburg for those soldiers of Imperial Germany who fought in World war one.

So he was still alive in early 1930´s.

If you have any photos that you would like to publish here , you can mail me at christer.daun@swipnet.se and I will help you.

MFG Christer

[Deruelle]

Hi,

Here is a photo of officers of the Jäger Btn Nr. 12 in St Souplet in september 1914. Like he was in this unit at this time, he should probably be here. Now have a look and you have to find him.

Christophe

[Sachsen]

Thanks very much,

we will try! But looks difficult.

Sachsen!

[Naxos]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2011/post-1062-0-67146000-1319830072.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_10_2011/post-1062-0-63453300-1319830092.jpg

[Deruelle]

Gotcha Hardy, you have better eyes than me, thanks

Christophe