Guest Rick Research Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 I've worn a hole in my rug pacing back and forth over this guy. Years and years and years, and I can't FIND him.Unfortunately, there is absolutely nothing written on this, and it's not really that great a photograph, with bad lighting and many developing flaws.His Beamten shoulder boards are too unclear to tell much. Twisted braided cords, with two rosettes and a double bar of V braid at each shoulder end indicating a War's Duration appointment. UNFORTUNATELY--and this is the truly maddening part-- he was NOT a Beamter in his younger days!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulsterman Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 ...any chance he was originally in the navy? That "Paris" clasp is a little unusual to army units-and there is a China Noncom medal there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 And how do I know that? L@@K at his medal bar (be not distracted by his 1914 NONCOMBATANT Iron Cross and 1918 Black Wound Badge !!! 1) Prussian Red Eagle Order 4th Class 2) Prussian Crown Order 4th Class (this was a very unusual combination before 1900-- or is it a 3rd ??? 3) Prussian XXV Years Service Cross. And how do I know that it is an XXV and not an XX? Because he is wearing it BACKWARDS, so that "..XV" shows in the center. This is the key to all the confusion!!!! 4) 1870/71 War Medal with bar "Paris" 5) 1866 War Cross 6) 1900/1901 China Campaign Medal (OK, OK, he wasn't there... it's a stay at home steel) 7) 1897 Centenary Medal 8) Bavarian Order of Saint Michael : ??? Merit Cross with Crown (only from 1910 on???) or 4th Class with Crown, or 3rd Class? Chaos! Confusion! 9) Württemberg Friedrich Order-Knight 2nd Class Now: this is WEIRD. Before 1920, ONLY line combatant branch officers and medical officers received the XXV Years Service Cross. Beamten and NCOs were authorized for it just as the war started in 1914, but none were handed out to them until AFTER the war. If it was AFTER the war, and Grampa had his photo taken out in the back garden wearing his medals... why would he have mounted a 1920 XXV but NOT his 1914 noncombatant Iron Cross? This HAS to be a wartime 1918 photo. ... of a former career officer,veteran of two 19th century wars... with unusual and SHOULD BE unique decorations, having left active duty as a MAJOR/OBERSTLEUTNANT, only to return from retirement as some sort of World War administrative official rather than in his old branch of service. Brain huuuuuuurt!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Komtur Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 (edited) 2) Prussian Crown Order 4th Class (this was a very unusual combination before 1900 ) or is it a 3rd ???I would say, no doubt: a 3rd class! Edited March 24, 2008 by Komtur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Hmmmmm, I like that this one still confuses you. Why I remember where this all began! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dond Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Perhaps it was one of those "after the war" EK2s and this is taken on the day of awarding with it positioned in his button hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 I'm inclined to think a KO3 too-- which makes his career even STRANGER with the low level Bavarian and Württemberg awards at the end. I don't think it's a 1920 photo-- for a person of his status, the EK would have come first, and the XXV on discharge. Why can't I find him in Rank Lists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulsterman Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 VI corps pioneer subaltern? ......recalled to do harbor defenses?Hmmmm....is there a roll of the Bavarian St. Michaels' Orders out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 Rick Research,Thank you for posting this picture. Until now, I had never seen absolute evidence of a group (bar or mini chain) of awards going from WWI back to 1866. Over the years, I have seen a few mini chains of this range; but never took any of them seriously. I will at least be more open-minded in the future. Thanks again, Wild CardP.S. I think that your friend looks a bit like Generaloberst Freiherr Ludwig von Falkenhausen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 Just a reminder gor those of you who think I have Magic Powers / sold soul to The Enemy-- this-one-still-frustrates-the-bejeezus-out-of-me. Combatant status EX OFFICER called back for the World War as a LOWER ranking (Rechnungsrat)Beamter auf Kriegsdauer... and wounded while a noncombatant. AAAAAAIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEAAAAAUUUUGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TacHel Posted August 23, 2009 Share Posted August 23, 2009 (edited) P.S. I think that your friend looks a bit like Generaloberst Freiherr Ludwig von Falkenhausen Man, does he ever! But where's his PLM? Edited August 23, 2009 by TacHel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 The Bavarian Court and State Handbook lists all St. Michael winners – Non-Bavarians only until 1910, however. Here is the list of possible suspects from 1910 – non-Bavarian officers, Zahlmeister and similar ones (year is “handed out in”): Merit Cross with Crown: 1909: Zschau, KS Zahlmeister, IR 102 1903: Zeitz, OStVeterinär in FAR4 (Prinzregent) 1897: Kurth, Oberzahlmeister aD, Magdeburg 4th class with Crown: 1909: Dörtenbach, KW Major in 2. Württ. FAR; Peter Eichen, RM aD and Amtsgerichtsrat, Frankfurt/M. 1907: Beyersdorf, Hptm, FAR 16; Dunin v. Przychowski, Maj in IR 95; Neumann, Hptm in IR 95 1906: Wolfgang v. Salmuth, Maj, 10. Division 1904: v. Memerty, Hptm in IR 96; Kurt v. Plüskow, Hptm, 42. Inf-Brig. 1900: Erhard Graf Kalnein, 2. Garde-Ulanen-Reg. 1895: Landwehr-Hptm aD Friedrich Keilholz; Landwehr-Hptm aD Friedrich Schüppe 1893: KP RM aD Graf v. Pückler 1890: KP RM aD v. Katte 1888: KP RM aD v. Döring Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 And the Beamten: Merit Cross with Crown: 1910: Grundstedt, Lazarettinspektor, Dieuze 1909: Bergemann, Registrator, Militärkabinett; Hermann Rubow, Geh. Kanzleisekr., Militärkabinett 1908: Jacques, Intend.-Sekr., Int, KP XV. AK; Alexander Kliebsch, Ob.-Intend.-Sekr., Int, KP XVI. AK 1906: Hofrat Petersen, Geh. Registrator, Militärkabinett; Georg Lix, Geh. exped. Sekr. 1905: Nicolaus, Intend.-Sekr., KP. III. AK; Grosse, Rechnungsrat, KP Kriegsmin.; Köbele, KP. Kaserneninsp.; Julius Zöllner, KP Garnison-Verw.-Insp., Saargemünd; Hofrat Sommerkamp, Militärkabinett 1904 Reichelt, Rechnungsrat, KP Gr. Generalstab 1903: Kohrs, Rechnungsrat, KP Gr. Generalstab 1901: Thaa, Lazarettinsp., Metz-Stadt 4th class with Crown: 1909: Herbert Wollmann, Geh. exped. Sekr., Päpstl. Stuhl; Rechnungsrat Albrecht, KP Gr. Generalstab; Intend.-Rat Düvel, Intend. 39. Div.; Hofrat Lemcke, Militärkabinett; Rechnungsrat Blume, KP Kriegsmin.; Rechnungsrat Goetze, KP Ingenieur-Komitee, Festungsoberbauwart 1908 KP Rechnungsrat Krüger, Straßburg, Proviantamt; KP Rechnungsrat Tigör, Metz, Proviantamt; KP Rechnungsrat Heinrich Finke, KP Gr. Generalstab; KP Rechnungsrat Liere, KP Kriegsmin.; KP Rechnungsrat Balk, KP Kriegsmin.; KP Geh. Rechnungsrat Hermann Schliewe, KP Gr. Generalstab; Hofrat Fahm, Militärkabinett; Rechnungsrat Zingler, KP Gr. Generalstab 1907: Rechnungsrat Martini, KP Kriegsmin.; Rechnungsrat Müller, Reichsamt des Innern; Rechnungsrat Seidel, KP Kriegsmin.; Rechnungsrat Rausch, KP Kriegsmin 1906: KP Rechnungsrat Schelle; KP Geh. Rechnungsrat aD Karl, Berlin; KP Rechnungsrat Schröter, Rechnungsrat Metzky; Geh. Rechnungsrat Schuckert 1905: Rechnungsrat Kieselbach, Mainz; Geh. Rechnungsrat Strähler, KP Kriegsmin.; Geh. Rechnungsrat Armand, KP Kriegsmin.; Rechnungsrat Rudolf Wolff, Ordenskommission, Berlin .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Many many thanks. I simply cannot tell if the Bavarian award is enamelled or not, at that angle. The WF3b is quite peculiar, since Knighst 2nd Class peacetime in the military are far more unusual than Knights 1st. His boards here show he held the rank--if it existed--of "Senior Captain" (Rechnungsrat as a courtesy title to whatever the actual rank was, with that later Third Reich style "Polizei-Meister" boards) AND he has a little herringbone strip at each shoulder seam indicating "for war's duration." But his XXV seemingly identifies him as a former career Real Officer, retired, and the two Prussian Orders suggest an Oberstleutnant-- so he is two full ranks DOWN here and many many levels of "prestige" below that. I will try sorting these suspects out with the Orders Almanach and maybe will get lucky in the Prussian Hof und Staats Handbücher. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 (edited) Third Class (at least remotely possible suspects until 1910) (Beamten in brackets) BUT: It is none of these -- I checked them all in the DOA and elsewhere. 1889: Adolf Röder Frhr. v. Diersburg, KP Oberst zD 1892: (v. Skopnik, KP Geh. Regierungsrat, Straßburg) 1895: (Kirschner, Geh. Regierungsrat aD, Berlin) (Täglichsbeck, KP Oberbaurat aD, Hannover) Gestefeld, KP Major aD, Polizeihauptmann, Hamburg Fielitz, KP Wirkl. Geh. Kriegsrat aD, Berlin 1896: (Ludwig Gundlach, Geh. Regierungsrat, Wilmersdorf ) (Dr. Paul Kollmann, Geh. Oberregierungsrat zD) 1897: (Dr. Karl Wilhelm v. Meister, Regierungspräsident, Wiesbaden) 1898: (Dr. v. Michels, Geh. Regierungsrat, Straßburg) Friedrich Goetze, Geh. Rechnungsrat aD, Görlitz 1900: v. Morgen, KP Oberst, Kdr IR 15 Starck, Frhr. v., KP Major zD Tjard Schwarz, Geh. Marine-Oberbaurat, Schiffbau-Ressortdirektor, Kiel 1902: v. Beckedorff, KP Hptm dR (Leo Franken, Kais. Oberregierungsrat, Wiesbaden) (Sperber, Geh. Rechnungsrat aD, Weimar) (Hasenpatt, Geh. Kanzleirat, KP Kriegsmin.) 1903: (Steinmeister, Geh. Rechnungsrat aD, Steglitz) 1905: Egmont v. Websky, Major, KP Generalstab, VI. AK Franzelius, Geh. Hofrat, Ausw. Amt, Berlin Brünig, Wirkl. Geh. Kriegsrat, Militärintendant, KP XI. AK 1906: Karl Graf v. Alten-Linsingen, Maj dL, Hannover (Jahn, Vortragender Rat, Reichsschatzamt) (Hintze, Geh. Rechnungsrat, Reichsschatzamt) (Gustav Stolterfoth, KP Geh. Baurat aD) (Seele, Geh. Hofrat, Ausw. Amt) (Dr.-Ing. Wilhelm v. Siemens, Geh. Regierungsrat, Berlin) (Beuckenberg, Baurat, Dortmund) v. Friedeburg, KP Oberstlt, Kais. Flügeladjutant 1907: v. Cramon, Oberstlt., beauftragt mit der Führung Garde-Kürass.-Reg. Rettig, Geh. Kanzleirat, KP Kriegsmin. 1908: Dr. Nietner, KP Oberstabsarzt aD, Professor in Berlin Boy-Ed, Kais. Dt. Korvettenkapitän Hintze, Geh. Hofrat, Militärkabinett (Schultz, Regierungs- und Baurat, Kanalamt, Kiel) 1909: (Theodor Dietrich, Geh. Rechnungsrat, Reichsamt des Innern) (Jungheim, Geh. Rechnungsrat, Direktor des Reichstags) Eduard Stemmermann, Oberstlt, Distriktskommandant der Gendarmerie, Karlsruhe Stolzenburg, Geh. Rechnungsrat, Geh. exped. Sekr., KP Kriegsmin. (Dr. Alfred Westphal, KP Geh. Regierungsrat aD, Schriftführer des Kyffhäuserbundes) (Stieme, Geh. Kriegsrat, Justitiar, KP Kriegsmin.) Arnold, KP Geh. Kriegsrat, Intendant 1. AK Lemmel, Wirkl. Geh. Kriegsrat, KP Kriegsmin. Hoene, Rechnungsrat, Geh. Kanzleidirektor, KP Kriegsmin. Frhr. v. Broich, Major beim Stab Drag-Reg. 7 1910: v. Lenski, KP Oberstlt, Abt-Kdr, FAR 31 (Ruth, Geh. Hofrat, Ausw. Amt, Berlin) (Franz Dütting, KP Oberbaurat, Eisenbahnzentralamt, Berlin) (Laury, Oberregierungsrat, KP Eisenbahndirektion, Berlin) Edited September 9, 2009 by webr55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 (edited) None of the first list (non-Beamten) either. None of the Merit Cross Beamten. Edited September 9, 2009 by webr55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 The combination screams Prussian Kriegsministerium to me. GOT to be in there. So far, while some remain unknown-- not in Ranglisten and not in the Orders Almanac my New Prime Suspect working through all of them is Rechnungsrat exped. Sekretär in the Prussian Great General Staff Fritz Zingler, born in 1848: As of 1908 he had-- KO4, Pr IX, 1870, 1866, China, 1897, BM4mKr, WF3b. The latter two are the key pair and I find nobody else with it. Presumably he'd have advanced up the grades of his Prussian Orders after 1908. Maybe KO3 1916 as 50th anniversary present? I can NOT explain the XXV. The only thing I can think of is that he has slipped it into the same correct space where his IX was and just hasn't remounted the whole bar to stick in the EK2w. Although Beamten and career NCOs were authorized to receive the XXV just before the Great War started, I've neveer seen any evidence that anyone of those categories actually GOT one until AFTER the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 YES!!! That looks very good to me! Many of the others I checked had WF3a, but none WF3b. That must be him --- somehow Fritz Zingler exchanged his IX for an XXV and did not mount his EK2w. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 (edited) Rechnungsrat Fritz Zingler is listed in the Berlin Adressbuch until 1926, living in Bugenhagenstr. 3. Edited September 9, 2009 by webr55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulsterman Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 any chance he is Rudolf Zingler, Chief of staff for the 2nd AK? No-looking at the ranklists-no way. Still, interesting magazine on-line. http://perweb.firat.edu.tr/personel/yayinlar/fua_241/241_26862.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 The Bavarian award roll to Prussians did it-- we have a winnah! He must have been Fritz Zingler. Could never have found him without you, from what I have. Siekmann's Beamten Pocket Book 1902 shows only Orders-- zero And yet, having FLUNG myself upon the mercy of the Orders List holders... Kanzleirat Zingler received KO4 18 January 1902 Expedierender Sekretär Zingler received RAO4 27 February 1912 and ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 (edited) @Ulsterman: Interesting -- but that is General d. Inf. zD Rudolf VON Zingler (1839-1920)- Edited September 9, 2009 by webr55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Thanks to Glenn's slogging through the Militäwochenblätter transcribing and indexing all names and because I HAVE all of the 1915 issues (very much unindexed ) Edition of 15 April 1915, Column 1693 TADAAAAAAAA !!!!!! KO3 in rank aD on staff of the Home Establishment of the Great General Stff in Berlin. Now the mystery that remains is... how did this 65+ year old retiree retread get himself WOUNDED? Results-through-Global-Research-Cyborg-Collective! :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webr55 Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Wow! Couldn't have been a bomb on Berlin, could it.... Maybe a trip to the front? Here is his entry in the Bavarian Court and State Handbook: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 I don't think any Allied aircraft reached that far in the First War. We shall surely find more. Together we can!!!! :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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