Kleiner Rock

[dante]

This is what I understand to be "Train" Tunic with infantry epaulettes ? but before I replace the epaulettes....am I correct ? if so what epaulettes should I get ?

also the buttons are not the correct ones.....if anyone has any for sale ?

[Chip]

dante,

A Kleiner Rock should be feldgrau with an Abzeichentuch collar. This tunic looks to be a lighter gray and the collar seems to be the same color. Perhaps this is a Litewka. Officer's could get away with a lot of things, but I'm not so sure about M15 Feldachselst?cke on a Litewka, however. I am assuming that the underlay for the officer's boards is white? If so, then yes, they are probably wrong. The Train troops were not the only ones to wear the light blue Kragenpatten, but it is the most likely identification. Train tunics should have tombak buttons. These appear to be silver, so some more information would be helpful.

[dante]

dante,

A Kleiner Rock should be feldgrau with an Abzeichentuch collar. This tunic looks to be a lighter gray and the collar seems to be the same color. Perhaps this is a Litewka. Officer's could get away with a lot of things, but I'm not so sure about M15 Feldachselst?cke on a Litewka, however. I am assuming that the underlay for the officer's boards is white? If so, then yes, they are probably wrong. The Train troops were not the only ones to wear the light blue Kragenpatten, but it is the most likely identification. Train tunics should have tombak buttons. These appear to be silver, so some more information would be helpful.

Chip, welcome your thoughts on attached

[Chip]

dante,

Thanks for the additional photo. This is an officer's Litewka. The horizontal hip pockets are another indication of this. Kleiner R?cke had hip pockets that were set on a slant. In looking at other photos of Litewka, I find that many were updated to the new shoulder boards after 1915. Though these upgrades tended to be the bright topped boards introduced for the 1915 Friedensrock, the Bavarian Army Museum has a Hussar Litewka that has subdued Feldachselst?cke (as yours does). I think your piece just has the wrong shoulder boards. They appear to be well sew in, so changing them, even if you found the correct boards, might be quite an undertaking. On the Litewka, the Kragenpatten were supposed to be the same color as the underlay of the shoulder boards.

Chip

[ccj]

Could it be a cavalry Litewka?

[Chip]

Charles,

I mentioned earlier that there could be other possibilities, but I don't have a chart or list to use to find out.

[dante]

Charles,

I mentioned earlier that there could be other possibilities, but I don't have a chart or list to use to find out.

Guys, thanks...should the buttons be gold or silver ?

[Mike Dwyer]

Guys, thanks...should the buttons be gold or silver ?

In his first posting Chip mentioned the buttons should be tombak, which are kind of a brass/copper color.

[dante]

In his first posting Chip mentioned the buttons should be tombak, which are kind of a brass/copper color.

Mike he also said "The Train troops were not the only ones to wear the light blue Kragenpatten" so we still do not know what colour buttons.....

[Mike Dwyer]

Mike he also said "The Train troops were not the only ones to wear the light blue Kragenpatten" so we still do not know what colour buttons.....

You're absolutely correct! I was stuck on the train troops track (no pun intended) though, I wasn't thinking about the Kragenpatten colors. Sorry. If it is train, then the buttons should be tombak.

[ccj]

You're absolutely correct! I was stuck on the train troops track (no pun intended) though, I wasn't thinking about the Kragenpatten colors. Sorry. If it is train, then the buttons should be tombak.

I'm looking for any clues in my references. I've my stuff scattered all over.

[Chip]

I suppose this could be cavalry Litewka, but regardless of what it is, the color of the Kragenpatten should match the underlay of the shoulder boards. That's what I get from my translation.

In Kraus's book, about the collection of the Bavarian Army Museum, there is an artillery officer's Kleiner Rock with silver colored buttons. They should be gilt. Kraus notes this, but offers no explanations. The point being that officers just did what they wanted in many respects.

[ccj]

I suppose this could be cavalry Litewka, but regardless of what it is, the color of the Kragenpatten should match the underlay of the shoulder boards. That's what I get from my translation.

In Kraus's book, about the collection of the Bavarian Army Museum, there is an artillery officer's Kleiner Rock with silver colored buttons. They should be gilt. Kraus notes this, but offers no explanations. The point being that officers just did what they wanted in many respects.

Did anyone ever figure out what unit this rock belongs?

[ccj]

Hello fellas,

I came across this Kleiner rock that has dove gray tabs but darker blue underlay on the shoulder boards.

[ccj]

Another with shoulder boards that don’t have matching or double underlay

Edited May 30, 2020 by ccj

[Bayern]

10 hours ago, ccj said:

Another with shoulder boards that don’t have matching or double underlay

What says Weitze in the catalogue ?  

The Litewka with dove grey patches is of the Air Service  I imagine due to the fact that the arm of service colour of the Air Service was light grey but the medium blue backing of the SBs dont match .

[GdC26]

3 hours ago, Bayern said:

What says Weitze in the catalogue ?  

The Litewka with dove grey patches is of the Air Service  I imagine due to the fact that the arm of service colour of the Air Service was light grey but the medium blue backing of the SBs dont match .

https://www.weitze.net/militaria/61/Preussen_nbsp_1_Weltkrieg_feldgraue_Litewka_M_1915_fuer_einen_Offizier_im_Regiment_Jaeger_zu_Pferde_Nr_10__351761.html
 

Preußen 1. Weltkrieg feldgraue Litewka M 1915 für einen Offizier im Regiment Jäger zu Pferde Nr. 10

Friedensstandort Angerburg/Goldap. Kleiner Rock aus feldgrauem Tuch, Knopfleiste, Ärmelaufschläge und Klappkragen mit roten Vorstößen. Der Resedagrüne Kragen wohl mal fast abgerissen und mit alter, größerer Reparatur. Auf dem Kragen grüne Patten mit gelben Vorstoß. Auf den Schultern eingenäht die Schulterstücke für einen Leutnant, mit gelber Tuchunterlage. Auf der Brust Schlaufen für Orden/Auszeichnungen. Innen mit olivgrünem Seidenfutter. Getragenes Stück, der Kragen stark repariert, weitere Reparaturen an beiden Ärmeln und am Rücken. Zustand 2-. Ein seltenes Stück.

Die Farbkombination der Patten auf dem Kragen entspricht normalerweise der Farbkombination der Tuchunterlagen der Schulterstücke. Vorschriftsmäßig wären für den Rock die Schulterstücke mit grüner Tuchunterlage mit gelben Vorstößen. Die Schulterstücke sind aber alt vernäht. Warum der Offizier nur "einfache" Schulterstücke trug, ist nicht bekannt.

[ccj]

Thanks for posting the advertisement-

I don’t really understand why many Litewka and Kleiner Rock dont have matching boards. Many I’ve examined look like the boards are sewn in very nicely and look original. Sometimes I see obvious replacement so mostly assume those are tampered with but not sure why.  I don’t think changing the boards coupd ever make the tunic more expensive or desirable. 

As for the aviation one I posted, it looks very nice to me and the boards look original as do the collar tabs. So, was it always aviation or was it once cavalry or Train? Who knows..... 

I like cavalry tunics so when people mess with them trying to make an aviation it upsets be a bit.  I do realize most aviators who transferred to the air service maintained there prior branch uniforms and added wings to their boards. Many didn’t ever do that.  
 

the JzP kleiner rock confuses me more on all the repairs. I don’t understand why the damage and repairs unless don’t after the war. Isn’t the Litewka and Rock a behind the lines tunic?

 

[ccj]

I’m not sure who owns this tunic now but it’s a real beauty 

 

[ccj]

So, is this a cavalry kleinerrock?

 

http://www.militaria-online.de/pics/3024.jpg

[Bayern]

If from Cavalry, Dragoons ?

[ccj]

I agree, its most likely cavalry and not an Adjutant....

[Bayern]

The monogram  on the shoulder boards is a crowned double W ? or the crowned double F of the 17 th Mecklenburg dragoons ?

[ccj]

I see no devices on the shoulder boards. 

[Bayern]

On 31/05/2020 at 15:29, ccj said:

I’m not sure who owns this tunic now but it’s a real beauty 

 

Clearly visible crowned monogram on the Shoulder Boards