1870 noncombat ek2 bar

[scottplen]

well hope someone learns from this I know I did !!!!!

Edited April 26, 2008 by scottplen

[scottplen]

hello

not to bring up the past!!! but been contacted by someone who told me they originally owned this bar in the 80s and sold it to dealer i got it from !!! it was originally in case and crown order 4th class was missing and there was no repeat bar !says it was a plain crown order ribbon! he does not want his named given out but did email a copy of reciept he says is the reciept of him originally getting bar in the west coast! So what do you think sure sounds like my bar ! If so should i take off red cross crown order and restore bar back to a plain 4th cl.?????

what do you guys think ?? :speechless1:

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello Scott:

Wow! What a journey this poor bar has been on.

You are asking for opinions, so here goes: I believe that yes, this is the same bar as listed on the receipt. I believe that the Crown Order 4th w/ Genfer Kreuz was added (as was the ribbon). I believe that the 1914 EK repetition bar was added. And, I believe that this particular item (1914 EK repetition bar) is a modern forgery [no matter what is listed in a nice big hard cover color book (1st or 2nd revised edition) in English to the contrary]. One would have more luck finding a chicken with teeth!

At this point, I don't know what you should do with the group. It is still a nice group! The non-combatant 1870 EKII is nice, as is the 1866 non-combatant cross (rather scarce!).

It is a shame what has been done to it by an individual(s) in the past. I'm glad that you have it, appreciate it, and want to find the truth regarding it, and restore it to its former glory.

This is a noble effort!

Congratulations on owning this nice group!

Best regards,

"SPM"

[Ed_Haynes]

As those more expert than I have said, this is a hard call. Your honesty in unraveling the history of this important group and the sad tale of what the worms have done to this group is worthy of praise. What do you do now? A hard question. My two cents (or less) is: The damage has been done, document it, record it, and do no additional harm. But that is a really, really hard ethical call.

I look forward to hearing from others.

[Les]

We're all custodians that have something which most likely will "outlive" us. Whatever you do to the bar, someone else will eventually own it. When the item passes hands a time or two, whatever -you've- done get's blended with the past. Even if a restoration is "perfect" to the eye, the piece has still been altered from the way the recipient or first owner had it. How do you prevent future owners from either thinking they've got a group that's never been tinkered with, or...restored.

Think long and hard, and do what you feel is right for the piece, and for history.

As for what I'd do, is not dump it on someone else and keep it as a reminder. I'd leave it the way it is and let it be a reminder.

An aside here... I have a small grouping of an officer that fought in WWI, and served again in WWII. On May 8, 1945, he and hundreds of thousands of other German soldiers were surrendering to the Allied armies. He unfortunately had to surrender to the Russians. He had his medals and other items with him, and to save on space, cut the medals off the bar so they could be stuffed in his pocket. An American officer on liason duty with the Russians (making the story short) relieved him of items before the Russians marched him off. The American brought the items home and kept them.

I got the items from his estate and the ribbons still show cut marks on the end ones, while the others appera to have been pulled off once the bar was coming apart.

The group is an important one, and I've thought about having it all restored. The problem is, restoring the bar also alters part of the history of the grouping. My decision is to leave it exactly the way it came to me, because the cut ribbons and the others without the cut lines help tell a story that some might not realize happened if the bar was put back together with replacement ribbons for the ones that were cut.

Whatever you do, be able to justify your actions to the gods of collecting. (There's probably a Saint Ricky type at the gate with a Ranglisten....to bar your entrance if you've done wrong).

Les

[Biro]

...I believe that the 1914 EK repetition bar was added. And, I believe that this particular item (1914 EK repetition bar) is a modern forgery [no matter what is listed in a nice big hard cover color book (1st or 2nd revised edition) in English to the contrary]. One would have more luck finding a chicken with teeth!...."SPM"

Thanks for the close-ups of the 1914 EK repetition bar Scott.

I totally agree with SPM - the repeat bar is a modern forgery. I've studied these long and hard - and have gone into quite some detail here in the past about what characteristics to look for on a dubious one.

Sadly, this is another one of them... too easy to find, too easy to add...

Please, whatever you do, ensure this one does not get back into.. 'circulation'.

All the best

Marshall