STUNNING Development in Imperial Aviation Badges!

[Stogieman]

Many of you have born witness to a crusade I have been on for many years now. The "Crown vs. No Crown" debate. When I was younger and a new collector, I amassed my first collection of "Imperial Aviation Badges" over the course of a few years. I was quite proud and naturally wished to insure my substantial investment against theft. The Insurer required a written evaluation/valuation from an accepted expert in the field from Germany. The collection was insured and shipped to Germany. Upon receipt of the collection, the German Expert asked me "what shall I do with this box of fake badges?"

Subsequent evaluation by private collectors in Germany; older, respected and not interested in being in anyone's spotlight collectors; confirmed this crushing determination to me.... Every single badge was a "Crown Badge". I learned that in most family bequests to Germany's Museums the flight badges either bore no marks, or Juncker marks with NO crown, or Meybauer marks. I lost thousands of dollars. In that moment of realization, I made a promise I would do my best to make sure no-one else made the same errors I did. No-one else would lose what I lost financially.

Since that date, I have campaigned (sometimes loudly, sometimes quietly) for what I felt was the truth. Other people, other dealers, other collectors often had a different truth. But The Truth is The Truth and it shall set you free. A few years back, Cmdr. Robert Pandis published an article in Military Trader regarding Imperial Flight Badges and their markings. His conclusion was different than mine. Many dealers felt vindicated. My God, there were sellers of these "Crown Badges" citing his article as proof-positive of the authenticity of their merchandise. Why on any given week, you could purchase a dozen of these badges at the drop of a hat..........

But Cmdr. Pandis continued his search. he left his article open-ended and encouraged debate and documentation to continue. A new article has been updated today on Andreas Schulz-Ising's website and the link was eMailed to me a few moments ago. Please take the time to review it. I think you will find it interesting to say the least.

http://www.medalnet.net/pandis.htm

I give a major "Thumbs-Up" to Robert's tireless and ceaseless efforts to seek the truth. the real truth. I know the hours of time he has spent on this body of work and have seen preliminary drafts of the full extent of this work which he will release in time. I commend him for his great personal expense in money, time and travel that he has expended with no thoughts to anything other than finding the truth.

Cmdr. Pandis is an example to each and every one of us. Remember the first rule of collecting. "Know your subject"...........

Robert, I am proud to know you and proud to have contributed in a small way in assisting you in this journey. Bravo!

[Bob Hunter]

My thanks to you both! Has this been posted at WAF?

[Luftmensch]

Stogie, you have been a thorn in several dealers' sides when it comes to your insistence about "no crowns". I salute you for persevering in getting this message out, and Robert for his careful analysis and logic. There is still no period documentation explaining why hallmarks were used in variance to regulations. which is probably why--it was against regs. With British silver, you sometimes encounter sterling fitted dirks, plaid brooches etc. lacking hallmarks to get around the collection of tax, and make an item cheaper to buy. I wonder if similarly, some commercial loophole was being exploited by German mfrs. for the bottom line. I also wonder why fakers seem to have rushed to put the crown back when they were not used on legit pieces. What was the psychology there? All I know is, after Stogie first raised the cry, I checked all my badges from families and attributed groups and they have no crowns.

Yet larger pieces of silver, incl. Ehrenbechers do have crowns...

[Mike Dwyer]

Stogie,

I am basically just a reader here! I know nothing about these badges and they aren't my real field of interest either. I tend to read anything you post because you seem to be extremely knowledgable and truly care about the truth. Perhaps I am being dense, but I'm a bit confused about the article.

You say "no crowns" but in the article some of the examples shown as 'real' badges have crowns, so is the colonel still in the "crown" camp and believe real badges did have crowns?

[Luftmensch]

Mike,

Robert is focussing on two separate crowns--one on the top of the badge design or, more specifically, the shape of their wells on the reverse, and the absence or presence of crown hallmarks. Every badge is crowned, but Stogie and Robert contend that a period (1913-45) and therefore "original" badge should not have a crown hallmark

Edited October 22, 2005 by Luftmensch

[Mike Dwyer]

Mike,

Robert is focussing on two separate crowns--one on the top of the badge design or, more spoecifically, the shape of their wells on the reverse, and the absence or presence of crown hallmarks. Every badge is crowned, but Stogie and Robert contend that a period (1913-45) and therefore "original" badge should not have a crown hallmark

Thank you very much, I was a bit confused!

[Guest Rick Research]

We all are! WW1 aviation badges are NOT a field to dabble in, and unless a collector is prepared to invest years of slogging research and study time, fraught with peril.

These Prussian hallmarks are bad enough (I wonder, I does, I do, why no SAXON made badges ever show up, when they also used the Prussian type. Hmmmmm.)-- Bavarian ones have as their main maker, a firm that could not even SPELL their own names consistently!

When in doubt--which with these would be All The Time-- it is best to consult

The Best

?Saludos amigos! Thanks for sharing this research!

[Mike Huxley]

Stogie,

Just one word .... THANKS .... that's for the detailed information given before I started collecting aviation badges ..... for the work that you put in to identifying all the pitfalls involved within this area of collecting ..... and last of all, for sticking to what you knew through research and experience to be correct and sharing it with others.

[Luftmensch]

On the other hand.... ....there will be HELL to pay, if the word spreads to the grass roots badge collector that crown=repro, not just postwar as was previously postulated. Just think of the FLOOD of bad badges and disillusionment out there. What will that do to the prices of good badges? Will "no crowns" command a premium? or drive collectors out and demand down? For every Stogie with a shoebox of fakes who resolves to educate himself, I'm afraid a dozen will sell-out and stay away. Maybe on that old supply/demand curve supply will drop farther than demand and it will be good for the hobby. Or maybe this is all speculation, the assumption of "baseline" badges w/o crowns, easily ignored by those with a financial interest in keeping supply high, until a smoking gun is found...

[dond]

Or maybe this is all speculation, the assumption of "baseline" badges w/o crowns, easily ignored by those with a financial interest in keeping supply high, until a smoking gun is found...

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

Don

[Luftmensch]

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

Don

Let me help you, Don....speculation...conjecture...guessing based on incomplete information and, therefore, easily denied by every one but members of our choir. Robert's gone about as far as he can go based on observation and reasonable assumptions. Some German silver or guild experts ought to step up and explain the practice of hallmarking during and after WW1.

Edited October 23, 2005 by Luftmensch

[Guest Rick Research]

I do not know about silver hallmarking rules and regulations in Prussia and its successors, but the crown on Berlin city made silver-- which IS found legitimately on the pre-1919 Wagner made Prussian railways long service brooches and so on, is STILL in use. Several years ago my mother's then boss ordered an enormous brand new tableware service from an old firm still in business making the old patterns and every spoon, fork, knife, and little dish all bore these same hallmarks-- by "tradition" I can only assume.

If there is a "pattern" of hallmark use by size or weight or retail value, I've never seen it. Perhaps it had/has something to do with fineness, "no crown" 800 silver/ "crown" 900 silver and so on?

Ultimately, it comes down to what people will BELIEVE, when they see evidence. Somebody like me, who only owns three WW1 flying badges, is NEVER going to be an expert and is never going to delude myself into thinking I ever will be on this subject. Since I am not "invested" (financially or psychologically) one way or the other, the case for and against is theoretical to me and can be judged objectively.

IF there is a case to be made FOR crowned badges rather than "I bought mine for a high price from a famous dealer," then someone needs to do AS MUCH WORK as has been done with this research.

The truth is what matters, and not what we wish for, after all.

As a final thought: these kinds of revelations often provoke victims to do crazy things:

before outraged "investors" start smashing up crown badges with hammers--

just put them away in a drawer and take deep breaths.

Oh, yeah--- my three badges? All good, BTW.

Whew!!!!!! But then the Evil Ricky ALREADY told me that.

As for the inability of the P?llath/Poellath company to freakin' spell their own name consistently

watch this space for all future developments:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2204&hl=poellath

though I doubt anything can EVER beat that Mass card with BOTH spellings, one per side.

Next up I hope Cmdr. Pandis will do all those NAVAL flying badges which are ALSO flooding the market in numbers never seen in the Good Old Days....

[Luftmensch]

Rick, I believe the final explanation will have something to do with taxes and profits. But crowns were used with "800" marks as on the Ehrenbechers. Here's a site

http://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_marks.html

that lists down many German marks of varying purities all with crowns. They also have a forum, but their members aren't as trigger happy as this one! So it may take awhile before I get any answer...

Rgds

John

Edited October 23, 2005 by Luftmensch

[Stogieman]

I have always felt that the law for these marks was interpreted differently, company by company... Juncker DID use a crown mark, but only on its' larger pieces, nothing small like medals, badges, broaches.... but it shows up on helmets of all things!!

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Why the long mystery and lack of consensus? Rick you said LONG ago NO attributed piece had come forth with crown/moon. Surely others must have noticed that.

Are these modern pieces from the 60's or Weimar souvenirs and 'replacements'?

[medalnet]

Why the long mystery and lack of consensus? Rick you said LONG ago NO attributed piece had come forth with crown/moon. Surely others must have noticed that.

Are these modern pieces from the 60's or Weimar souvenirs and 'replacements'?

Several were made in Wuppertal, Germany, for decades until about 10 years ago. Nice electroplated/formed fakes.

[Luftmensch]

Brian, there is no consensus because a negative does not prove a positive, it is only suggestive of one. Since I heard Stogie make that assertion and found it was true of my attributable groups, I stopped buying "Crowns". But such evidence is only anecdotal, and unpersuasive to the thousands who own "Crowns." Let us assume the Crown is a Duty mark as in English silver--perhaps aviators serving in wartime were excused the added expense and option of paying tax on their purchase of regulation insignia by buying a badge without a Crown. But that does not conclusively prove that Crown badges were NOT made in wartime at some point by some firms. Big pieces of silver usually carry a Crown. These pieces are not regulation pieces. All Ehrenbecher carry crowns, for example. Perhaps on these "discretionary" items the avoidance of tax was not an option. Maybe some "Crowns" were made in 1913 and 1914, but because of their small numbers Robert / Stogie haven't seen any yet!

Edited October 24, 2005 by Luftmensch

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

I'm not sure I can buy that logic. Can you show that the dies that created the crown/moon are the same as the no crown pieces?

[Luftmensch]

No, I only assumed it for the sake of argument. For you and I to have a consensus in that hypothetical case or the community to agree with us we need positive documentation or some statistically significant survey of all badges in existence. Only a very tiny percentage--less than one tenth of one percent?--remain in attributable groups. I wonder what Robert is working on now. So far he is only saying, the badges I have seen with crowns don't look so good. I think he has to follow the money. What was the function of the Crown? Hallmarks are generally used to protect purity, collect revenues, and identify the maker. A mom and pop jewellery store could order from Juncker badges and boxes without Juncker hallmarks. Who but the government could give Juncker permission to drop the crown? Did someone say the crown is in use today? If so, could someone in this forum living in Germany go into a jeweller's shop and ask its purpose?

Edited October 24, 2005 by Luftmensch

[Guest Brian von Etzel]

Who but the government could give Juncker permission to drop the crown?

"Further, the Imperial Crown for gold must appear inside the sun and, for silver, appear to the right of the Crescent Moon. An exception in Paragraph 9 of the Order is made for jewelry and small wares; which were not required to be marked."

Juncker didn't need the government's permission not to carry the crown, they alread had it.

[Luftmensch]

Juncker didn't need the government's permission not to carry the crown, they alread had it.

[Stogieman]

....... and the beat goes on. I would expect to continue to see debate. i expect everyone who owns "crown-marked" badges to continue to poo-poo unmarked ones. Good. Less competition for the real McCoy.........

[Luftmensch]

Nope...smallest piece of silver I have with a crown is an inch and a half shot cup, a Schiesspreis from a Fliegerschule dated 1917. Less silver than a badge, but nothing else. I guess it's a good bet that if they didn't have to whack that crown in they didn't bother.

What happens when it comes time to SELL that big collection, Stogie?

By the way, Der Ritt is about to list a nice engraved "925" pilot's badge to Rudolf Rademacher (his son was an Me-262 ace), NO CROWN + license + pilot's badge Urkunde. Can't think the last time I saw all three named and tied in.

[Stogieman]

....... so, one of yours, (ex-yours?) probably by Meybauer, not Juncker??

[Luftmensch]

Yeah, I've got too many attributable groups...and also I collect Napoleonic swords. Kind of like balancing a crack addiction with crystal meth.

Would you believe I'm blanking on the shape? Not Juncker, don't believe it's Meybauer. No maker's mark. Rayback, 925 stamped bottom of reverse. Large initials and "1918" engraved. Six (?) sew-on holes. Also comes with Prufung altimeter tape. I was at a show with Neil O'Connor and a friend. Neil said, "Buy It."

Rgds

John