Luftwaffe 1st Pattern Juncker O/G - Aluminum?

[Reini]

Hello,

I just received this badge and was amazed at how light it is. It only weighs 24.1 grams. Can anyone tell me if that is normal or is part or all of the badge aluminum? It is that very light color I sometimes see in aluminum badges. Thanks for any help!

Best

Kurt

[Reini]

...and the reverse. Thanks again!

Best

Kurt

[ERIC]

Hi Kurt,

Nice 1st pattern Juncker! Not aluminum, but more than likely tombak. The aluminums weigh in lighter than that (8 - 16 grams dependent on repairs) and are noticebly different in the hinge / catch department. Very nice pickup!

Best,

ERIC

[Reini]

Thanks , ERIC , that helps. I was expecting a heavier , more brassy badge , as I've never owned one of these Junckers before. It's named , too , but I can't make out all of the letters yet.

Best

Kurt

[Richard Gordon]

I would agree it's too heavy for aluminum. I would have though it could be neusilber as there seems to be no base metal showing through on worn spots (other than the hinge and catch).

Having said that it looks like the '2nd' model but a clearer shot of the head, especially the eagle's eye would clear that up as it seems to be the only visual difference between the two.

FYI, the '1st' model example I have (neusilber) weighs 22.0g and the tombac one I have is 25.0g so perhaps tombac is correct.

Rich

Edited October 25, 2005 by Richard Gordon

[Richard Gordon]

Here's the '2nd' pattern.

Both are slim but the neusilber one is really slim!

Very nice badge you have there!

Rich

[J Temple-West]

What a find!

These all silver (meaning, without darkened eagle) variants are some of ?Junckers? finest work, imo. I?ve come across period photo?s showing these types being worn on officer?s evening dress, and looking at the quality you can see why.

I would agree with it being nickel silver as opposed to plated tombak/buntmetal. As to the pattern.. Finer legs/talons, lower brow, thiner neck, differences in the feathers all point to it being a 1st pattern.

Very nice, Reini.

Here's another example from the "silver series".

[J Temple-West]

Standard 1st pattern Radio Operator/Air Gunner badge in nickel silver.

[J Temple-West]

Transitional piece, having the 1st pattern wreath with a 2nd pattern eagle.

[J Temple-West]

Comparison between 1st and 2nd pattern eagles.

[Rosenberg]

These 1st version badges look fantastic!Did they do the whole product range with this style of 1st version,or do 1st versions differ in regard to the time of production start?

Regards

[Reini]

Thanks for all of the info. I've taken a few more shots. The first is the front from a lightly different angle. I am sure this is a first pattern.

[Reini]

I am still unsure of the material used. Here are two closeups showing what appears to be blackening on the undersides of the bolts. Would the silver version have this? There appears to be little or no wear on the eagle. If the blackening was ever present on it , it must have just come off over time. There is no base metal showing that I can detect.

Thanks again!

Best

Kurt

[J Temple-West]

I would say that the darkening of the areas under the bolts is a natural patina. My PB shows the same thing in the recesses.

Here is another 'silver' variant that I have in my files... This one is of the plated variety. Notice the base metal showing through where the plating has been worn away.

[Richard Gordon]

Personally, I don't believe in the 'all silver' theory.

Firstly, why would it be made that way when design of the badge incorporates a darkened the eagle? I just doubt Juncker would ignore the design finishing specifications. Besides it just looks so much better with the contrast of the blued eagle (my opinion, of course!).

Secondly, you can see from the reverse of badge in question that there is blueing on the wing-tips. Excessive cleaning will easily remove the blueing, especialy products such as silver dip which will remove the blued finish very quickly and leave no trace of scrubbing, etc.

But just because I'm not a believer does not make my views right. John, I'd love to see these period photos of pilots in evening dress. Can you post them?

Rich

Edited October 26, 2005 by Richard Gordon

[J Temple-West]

Rich, you could very well be right, there must be a certain amount that have been cleaned in the way you describe.

As far as manufacturers abiding by the ?design finishing specifications? is concerned, if the reg's were that strict..how do we explain ?all silver? JMME badges? A characteristic we look for.

Imo, there was a very competitive sprit between the various makers, all trying to corner the market, all trying to make their badges more desirable than the next man. To this end, I?m sure that 800 silver, neusilber and plate versions would have been seen as highly desirable, and commercial, as presentation/gift pieces.

Of course, all speculation and only a humble theory.

[Richard Gordon]

John

Good point about IMME, also look at GWL... not exactly blued! These are traits from those makers BUT what we cannot argue or dispute is that Juncker did blue the eagles as per the design specification so I can only deduct that when these Junckers flight badges are found with no bluing, it is a result of wear or cleaning.

Anyway, we're slipping away from the original thread... BTW I agree with you on the badge being the 1st pattern and the additional points you mentioned to look for in distinguishing between '1st' and '2nd' designs. I just usually found the head to be the easiest point to focus on but your observations are also useful.

I just wish we could work out if CEJ pre-dated the C.E, Juncker mark or whether they both were in use for a time together until the CEJ mark was eventually dropped.

Rich

[Steve K.]

Kurt

That is a wonderful badge!!! IF you ever want to part with it, I know a good home. I've been looking for these uniformly finished variants.....they are difficult to find! Steve

[Richard Gordon]

Steve

Shouldn't that difficult...just take a normal piece, leave it in silver dip for a while and hey presto! All silver badge!

[Reini]

[Steve K.]

Richard

That's not the case here...the finish on this badge is original...look to the reverse. The other excellent example shown by John is stunning too.......

Those in the states use something called Simi-chrome, I think. Looks dreadful!!

[mmiller]

Hi Kurt,

Back to your original question about aluminum.... the Alu RO/AG badges (and P/O, and Heer Para), all weigh down in the 10 - 13 gram range.

Here is an aluminum Juncker RO/AG and Juncker P/O, just so you can get a feel for the style.

Regards,

Mark

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Edited January 28, 2006 by mmiller

[mmiller]

Kurt,

Juncker Alu RO/AG rear.

Mark

[attachmentid=24967]

[mmiller]

And the Alu Juncker DoppelAbz.

Mark

OBVERSE:

[attachmentid=24968]

[mmiller]

And the Alu Juncker P/O .

Mark

REVERSE:

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