BIG Tuxedo medal bar of Hugo Freiherrn von Stumm

[Claudio]

Dear forumites,

I found it strange that nobody started a thread regarding the above-mentioned bar... That's quite a rack of very rare orders, especially considering the combinations with the Russian orders. Very likely it went to a major Russian collectionist, since the price went up considerably.

Before the auction started I tried to get more detailed pictures of the bar (obverse and reverse), but the response of UBS was that the photograph on the catalogue on line was the only one available... that's quite a lazy attitude, not to mention bad service, considering that the auction house earned a lot of money from this bar (about Eur 5'000.- only from the purchaser, not to mention the commission deducted from the consignee). For such pieces on on-line catalogues the auction house should at least show more detailed pictures, like Hermann Historica is slowly trying to do.

I just wanted to open a thread about it, because you rarely see such bars... not even museums in Germany have such bars on exihibition. However I was curious to see if the bar was being manipulated. As you can see the crown order with swords has been replaced (because according to the description the original had to be returned). That's why it would have been crucial to see the detail of the back and the detail of the orders individually, especially those in Gold! Would you buy a car without having seen and tried it? With the money this bar sold you can buy a pretty nice car...

Your comment and thoughts are most appreciated.

Ciao,

Claudio

Description of the bar:

No.: 398

Sch?tzwert/Estimate: CHF 10'000.- / Eur 6'200.- Verkauft/Sold: CHF 36'000.-/ Eur 25'000.- + Aufgeld/Commission

Grosse krause Frack-Ordensschnalle von Hugo Freiherrn von Stumm mit 11 Auszeichnungen: 1.-) Preussen: Eisernes Kreuz II. Klasse 1870; 2) Preussen: Kronenorden, 3. Modell (mit "grosser" heraldischer preussischer Krone - ca. 1871-1918), Kreuz 4. Klasse mit Schwertern, Bronze vergoldet, Zentren Gold emailliert, die Schwerter festgel?tet, mit der R?ckseite nach vorne montiert; 3) Preussen: Kriegsdenkm?nze 1870/1871 f?r Kombattanten, mit Randpr?gung, vergoldet; 4) Preussen: Erinnerungskreuz f?r K?niggr?tz 1866, alte Spangenpr?gung, vergoldet; 5) Russland: Silberne Medaille f?r Khiva 1873, Silber; 6) Bayern: Milit?r-Verdienstkreuz des Milit?r-Verdienstordens, 1. Modell (1866-1905), Silber, Zentren Gold, emailliert; 7) Russland: Orden vom hl. Wladimir, Kreuz 4. Klasse mit Schwertern und Schleife, Gold emailliert, Emaillemalerei; 8) S?chsische Herzogt?mer: Sachsen-Ernestinischer Hausorden, 2. Modell (1864-1935), Ritterkreuz mit Schwertern,1. Ausf?hrung mit sogen. "deutschen" (geraden) Parierstangen der Schwerter, Silber, Zentren Gold, emailliert; 9) Russland: Orden vom hl. Stanislaus, 2. Modell, 2. Ausgabe (ca. 1841-1917), Kreuz 3. Klasse mit Schwertern und Schleife, Gold emailliert; 10) Bayern: Verdienstorden vom hl. Michael, Ritterkreuz 2. Klasse, Gold emailliert; 11) Osmanisches Reich: Medjidjie-Orden, Dekoration 4. Klasse, Silber brillantiert und reperciert, Auflagen und Halbmondagraffe Gold emailliert, auf der R?ckseite osmanisch punziert, auf dem Band mit Rosette. An Nadel.

Group of 11 awarded to Hugo Freiherr von Stumm, mounted German civil style: 1) Prussia: Iron Cross 2nd class 1870; 2) Prussia: Order of the Crown, 3rd type (with "large" heraldic Prussian crown - ca. 1871-1918), cross 4th class with swords, bronze gilt, centres gold, the swords solded (not screwed), mounted with the reverse to the front side; 3) Prussia: War Commemorative Medal 1870/1871 for combattants, wording on the edge, gilt; 4) Prussia: Commemorative Cross for Koeniggraetz 1866, unofficial coinage, gilt; 5) Russia: Silver Medal for Khiva 1873, silver; 6) Bavaria: Cross for Military Merit of the Order for Military Merit, 1st type (1866-1905), silver, centres gold, enamelled; 7) Russsia: Order of St. Vladimir, cross 4th class with swords and bow, gold enamelled, enamel painting; 8) Saxon Duchies: Saxe-Ernestine House Order, 2nd type, (1864-1935), knight's cross with swords, 1. edition with so-called "German" (straight) parry rods of the swords, silver, centres gold, enamelled; 9) Russia: Order of St. Stanislas, 2nd type, 2nd edition (ca. 1841-1917), cross 3rd class with swords and bow, gold enamelled; 10) Bavarian: Order of Merit of St. Michael, knight's cross 2nd class, gold enamelled; 11) Ottoman Empire: Order of Medjidjie, decoration 4th class, silver brillant? and reperc?, application and suspension gold enamelled, on the reverse Ottoman hallmark, with rosette on ribbon. With pin.

RR ? (11 St?ck) ? I-II ? (EUR 6200.-)

Der preussische Kronenorden ist nach dem Tode des Beliehenen wohl zur?ckgegeben und sp?ter nicht fach- und sachgem?ss ersetzt worden. Die Medaille f?r Khiva an einer nicht-russischen Spange ist von allergr?sster Seltenheit. Bedeutende und aussagekr?ftige, in allen Teilen (bis auf den Kronenorden) original gen?hte und hervorragend erhaltene Ordenschnalle, die Auszeichnungen im Topzustand ohne Emaillesch?den. - Hugo Rudolf (seit 1888 Freiherr von) Stumm (1845-1910) stammt aus der bekannten saarl?ndischen Stahlindustriellen-Familie. Als Secondelieutenant im deutsch-franz?sischen Krieg 1870 ausgezeichnet (siehe Regimentsgeschichte des 1. Westf?lischen Husaren-Regiments Nr.8), liess er sich 1873 abkommandieren, um als Beobachter an dem ?usserst harten Feldzug des russischen Generals v. Kaufmann gegen das Khanat Khiva teilzunehmen. Nahm als Rittmeister seinen Abschied. Erbauer des Schlosses Ramholz (bei Schl?chtern in Hessen) mit bekanntem Park. Verfasser zweier mehrfach ?bersetzer Werke ?ber Turkestan mit hervorragenen Karten.

[Christian J]

It was a very nice bar and the Bavarian Order of Saint Michael must be the best looking of the german orders.

This also went for sale at the same time.

[Christian J]

The realised prices were surprisingly high, with the financial despair and all, so I unexpectedly failed to get this for myself.

[Guest Rick Research]

Well, I hope that the owner of the full sized medal bar (formerly in George Seymour's collection and now in a very good home) ended up with that mini chain, even though the Baden MKFVO-Ritter has been swapped out for the Swedish Order there and will be horribly difficult to find a correct mini.

George did not own that mini chain, so it was split off from the Baron's group before the very early 1970s.

Did the auctioneer even know whose it was?

Doesn't the super wide frame on the 1870 EK2 look like a 1939 size?

[Claudio]

Hi Rick!

Argghh... Too bad that they manage to ruin the mini-chain! I will be very difficult to replace it.

Was the full sized medal bar being sold on Thies' past auction? I think to remember which bar was it... Was on that bar a real pre-1916 Gold Baden MKFVO-Ritter? It was a beauty and didn't even sell during the auction but after... I really regret not to have bought it.

Ciao,

Claudio

Edited November 18, 2008 by Claudio

[Christian J]

Well, I hope that the owner of the full sized medal bar (formerly in George Seymour's collection and now in a very good home) ended up with that mini chain, even though the Baden MKFVO-Ritter has been swapped out for the Swedish Order there and will be horribly difficult to find a correct mini.

George did not own that mini chain, so it was split off from the Baron's group before the very early 1970s.

Did the auctioneer even know whose it was?

Doesn't the super wide frame on the 1870 EK2 look like a 1939 size?

So there is a known full sized bar?! You wouldn't have a xerox of it?

My hopes goes out to the owner that he could complement his medal bar.

Edit: I found it in one of thies catalogs. What a beaut.

Edited November 18, 2008 by RaZpuTiN

[Guest Rick Research]

Yup. Still have my 30+ year old xerox that George sent me-- I shall go scan it and plunk it in here so the set is together again, at least in this thread:

Medal bar has gone to live with another GMIC member. You can't have EVERYTHING!

Miraculously enough, I actually had all of the Baron's anciently xeroxed Baden service records here to pass along-- out of all of George's documentation, that was the only group's research paperwork "misfiled" (and so survived) in what came to me. :jumping:

[Claudio]

Here is the medal bar in all its glory and in colour:

[scottplen]

WOW !!!!! great medal bars !!!! :cheers:

[saschaw]

Aaaargh.... why did they not send us a catalogue?

:banger:

I re-recognized RvD's chain even without the "Karl Friedrich", and it would have been nice to "re-marry" it with our lose miniature. If someone now needs one very hardly: Jan K. Kube had one in his last auction that was bought by us and resent as it was not "Zustand I" but had some slightly damages. Still nice and rare, of beautiful quality and detail - but we don't buy "Zustand 1" to receive damaged things.

PS:

could someone please tell me how much RvD's chain sold for? Thanks in advance.

Edited November 19, 2008 by saschaw

[Claudio]

Hi Sascha!

Here's the catalogue description... funny that they mentioned in the description that "bei dem mit einiger Geduld die Identit?t des Tr?gers herausgefunden werden kann"...

Miniaturenkettchen mit 12 Auszeichnungsminiaturen, von rechts nach links: 1) Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse 1914; 2) Schweden: Wasaorden, Ordenskreuz, Gold; 3) Preu?en: K?niglicher Hausorden von Hohenzollern, Ritterkreuz mit Schwertern; 4) Baden: Orden vom Z?hringer L?wen, Ritterkreuz 2. Klasse mit Schwertern und Eichenlaub; 5) Braunschweig: Kriegsverdienstkreuz 2. Klasse mit Bew?hrungsabzeichen; 6) Hohenzollern: F?rstlicher Hausorden von Hohenzollern, Ehrenkreuz 3. Klasse mit Schwertern; 7) Deutsches Reich: Ehrenkreuz des Weltkrieges 1914-1918 f?r Frontk?mpfer; 8) Bayern: Milit?r-Verdienstorden, Kreuz 4. Klasse (ohne Schwerter!); 9) Deutsches Reich: S?dwest-Afrika Denkm?nze f?r Nichtk?mpfer; 10) Preu?en: Offiziers-Dienstauszeichnung f?r 25 Jahre; 11) Preu?en: Centenarmedaille 1897; 12) Baden: Regierungsjubil?ums-Medaille 1902 in Bronze. An Nadeln.

Miniature chain with 12 miniatures, from right to left: 1) Iron Cross 2nd class 1914; 2) Sweden: Order of Wasa, order's cross, gold; 3) Prussia: Royal House Order of Hohenzollern, knight's cross with swords; 4) Baden: Order of the Zaehringen Lion, knight's cross 2nd class with swords and oak leaves; 5) Brunswick: War Merit Cross 2nd Class with reliability badge; 6) Hohenzollern: Princely House Order of Hohenzollern, Honour Cross 3rd class with swords; 7) German Reich: Hindenburg Cross 1914-1918 with swords; 8) Bavaria: Order for Military Merit, cross 4th class (without swords!); 9) German Reich: Southwest-Africa Medal for non-combattants; 10) Prussia: Officer's Long Service Decoration for 25 years; 11) Prussia: Centenary Medal 1897; 12) Baden: Jubilee Medal 1902 in Bronze. With pins. Condition: G.V.F.

(12 St?ck) ? II ? (EUR 310.-) = Verkauft f?r CHF 1'100.- Zuzugl. Komm. (about Eur 735.- + commission fees)

Interessantes Miniaturenkettchen, bei dem mit einiger Geduld die Identit?t des Tr?gers herausgefunden werden kann. Der Wasaorden k?nnte darauf hindeuten, dass der Inhaber, wohl ein badischer Staatsangeh?riger, nach 1918 in pers?nlichen Diensten von K?nigin Viktoria von Schweden, einer geboren Prinzessin von Baden, gestanden haben k?nnte.

Apropos Kube... More than once I bought from him stuff that was described as Zustand I, like for example a Reussiches Ehrenkreuz 3. Kl. mit Krone; the crown has clearly been replaced and resoldered (nachgel?tet)... and still he wrote to me that he would take it back from only exceptionnally... Zustand I (Mint) is for me like if the medals or orders in question are coming out straight from box as if were packed it yesterday or even today. Mint is mint... no further discussion or useless polemics are needed; it they put in a catalogue Zustand I it should be flawless and look brand new.

Ciao,

Claudio

Edited November 19, 2008 by Claudio

[saschaw]

Thanks Claudio! 735,- Euro, what a bargain for one of the few "real" chains... really pity. Why didn't you post it before the auction?

Here's the catalogue description... funny that they mentioned in the description that "bei dem mit einiger Geduld die Identit?t des Tr?gers herausgefunden werden kann"...

Haha, they're good...

Apropos Kube... More than once I bought from him stuff that was described as Zustand I, like for example a Reussiches Ehrenkreuz 3. Kl. mit Krone; the crown has clearly been replaced and resoldered (nachgel?tet)... and still he wrote to me that he would take it back from only exceptionnally... Zustand I (Mint) is for me like if the medals or orders in question are coming out straight from box as if were packed it yesterday or even today. Mint is mint... no further discussion or useless polemics are needed; it they put in a catalogue Zustand I it should be flawless and look brand new.

Absolutely correct. One still might argue what "Zustand 2" is, but with "Zustand 1", there may not be anything about it. Just "new". Well, at least he took it back.

[Guest Rick Research]

"Der Wasaorden k?nnte darauf hindeuten, dass der Inhaber, wohl ein badischer Staatsangeh?riger, nach 1918 in pers?nlichen Diensten von K?nigin Viktoria von Schweden, einer geboren Prinzessin von Baden, gestanden haben k?nnte."

THEY get PAID for "expertise" they do not have, yet I give The Real Thing away... for FREE?

[Ed_Haynes]

THEY get PAID for "expertise" they do not have, yet I give The Real Thing away... for FREE?

But we pay you . . . with adulation.

[Guest Rick Research]

Hmmm. I'd rather have sex-crazed groupies...

but then given our average demographic profile....

FORGET THAT !!!!!!!

:cheeky:

[Les]

Hmmm. I'd rather have sex-crazed groupies...

Would Mata Hari (with or without the snake is your preference) do?

[Daniel Krause]

Hi Friends,

What are You screaming on that catalogue?

What would You guys have done better outside Your special knowledge covering Your collecting interests?

That book was done in a 2-men-show, not by 4000 experts on their fields!

It is one of the best Auction Catalogues I?ve ever seen since Thies is really falling down with the quality of the texts.

At least nearly everything was properly described, quite a lot of interesting info in there which I do normally not expect in a simple sales catalogue. For every piece there are lots of info about more literature where to find out more.

The guys who did the catalogue DID KNOW THEIR STUFF, otherwise I want to see anybody of You having knowledge about orders and decorations from all over the world.

And to joke about the "ID-tips", how many from US here have the knowledge to DO proper ID?s and not just to ASK for?

...just my 2 cent...

Best regards

Daniel

[Ed_Haynes]

Well said, Daniel. There were more sections than just the German, after all. Really. Hate to break it to you.

[Claudio]

Hi Daniel,

I personally met a couple of time Herr Autengruber and always was very kind and informative person. Of course he couldn't know everything some of us knew, because of knowledge acquired previously through personal time-consuming research or just by mere coincidence (like me, I must admit).

The only criticism I have toward the auction house (UBS Union Bank of Switzerland) is that the should have put bigger and more detailed pictures online and get back with more detailed information when I required by email.

Furthermore I am client of UBS as a bank account holder there... I am not quite happy how they conduct business lately (see blunder with real estate speculation in the USA, they almost went bankrupt.. .quite unbelievable for a Swiss major bank)... I also lost quite a lot of money because of their "products" I have invested in ....

Just my 2 cents.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Guest Rick Research]

"There were more sections than just the German, after all."

Yes Ed, but for NON-GERMAN areas, there is ONLY so far a Renaissance dilettante such as moi can go:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=32244&hl=

But for German WW1, this IS the Imperial German subforum.

Moi-- je reste toujours pr?t ici. Mes services l?gendaires sont trop souvent pour solde de tout COMPT? mais tragiquement pour moi pas RECOMPENS?. Tout le monde les comptent GRATIS comme toujours. ?a-- ce n'est pas un vie--pour pauvre Ricky!

Those Renaissance folk were all talented and smart-- but they're all DEAD. And no matter what I do, almost nobody seems to think THIS laborer is ever worthy of the odd Extremely Qualified Specialist "hire" either. It's sure no living! Such a tragic waste of knowledge!!!!! :(

[WNickel]

Hi Rick,

the bar and the mini chain and the two Carl-friedrich pieces had been sold in different lots... the stupid commerce 40 years ago... :speechless:

[WNickel]

Hi Claudio,

I was very interested in that bar, because here is the bar of his brother....but in this crazy times... :banger: