An Odd Saxon Ribbon Bar

[christerd]

And what do we have here ?

A Saschen with Honorcross w Swords and Crown or Albrecht Order on wrong ribbon ? + EK II + Honor Cross + Ls + Weimar something ?

Christer

:cat:

[medalnet]

Quite the bar! The honor cross with crown and swords is etremely rare!

Congrats!

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes indeed-- a real prize!!!!

I can't tell from the blurry camera shots-- are the stripes on the last ribbon BLACK or DARK GREEN?

Either way, I can't think what that is... so maybe indeed some 1920s veterans group ribbon.

[saschaw]

Gaah, it was you who outbid me on that? Nice one...

Even nicer I got his pre war old style one place bar. Have it not here by now, but it is for just the last ribbon.

Either way, I can't think what that is... so maybe indeed some 1920s veterans group ribbon.

It is black and you should know what it is for. Shall I help you?

[ccj]

That's a keeper!

[Guest Rick Research]

Andreas and I forgot to mention just HOW rare... if you don't have the late Erhard Roth's "Band XI" from Michael Autengruber's "pre-Daniel-and-Rick" phase of Roll books (1998)

There were, by combinations including additions of Xs or Crown and Xs to peacetime Crosses and Crowns to wartime Crosses with Xs during the war...

51.

Ayuh. Glad Jul!

Immediately deduct the phenomenal Paul Aue who also had BOTH St. Henry Medals and ended up as a Luftwaffe Oberst, another guy with an Albert Merit Cross X, and subtract 3 Prussians and we're down to

46 remaining suspects and I haven't even TRIED eliminating any yet.

And yet, and yet...

this Naughty Fellow is wearing TWO ribbons for the General Decoration. THAT seems to imply that he had a peacetime one which had Crown and Swords added TOGETHER during the war...

which narrows things right doen to

4

Waffenmeister Theodor Kessler of FAR 245 who added his "KrX" on 25.02.17,

Kriminal Oberwachtmeister (Nofirstname) K?chenmeister of Zivil Verwaltung Etappen Inspektion 3 (probably Feldgendarmerie or GFP) on 18.11.15,

Waffenmeister Ottomar Reuther of Fu?art Rgt 12 on 30.10.15, or

Waffenmeister Oskar Wilke, who received his "KrX" on 18.06.15 while in the Ersatz Abteilung of Fu?art Rgt 12

Per regulations, the peacetime would have been REPLACED by the additional crown and swords addition, which would hardly have been fair (often was not in German practice) but he might have slid this by.

Evil Sascha apparently KNOWS something...

guess what Santa Claus is going to leave in HIS stocking?

(As a note to Other Wicked People: General Decorations with Xs alone are themselves so scarce--1,978--

that ruining quite scarce bars to make fantasy rarer bars isn't going to work. The Gnomes have the Rolls. You won't get away with it!!!! )

[christerd]

:love:

Thanks all, I will try to get better pics of the ribbonbar, but my camera always "flashes" out everything so it gets white all over or to less light so it gets blurry

Saschaw do you have some info about the last ribbon? I am totally lost there Hmmm

It was a real coincidence that I bought it, I was sitting on Z?rich airport and had nothing to do and spend some time in a internet cafe.....

It is my Christmas gift to myself, now I have the rest of the family to think about..... Maybe my wife would like EKII

Christer

Edited December 14, 2008 by christerd

[christerd]

:cheers:

Glad Jul Rick ! And Merry Christmas to all you other who dosent speak Swedish

The last ribbon still haunts me, I cant find anything on the net which explains a White and black ribbon ?

Non fighter EK II, RAO , Louise Orden hmmm I must get a Epson Scanner (will bid for one tomorrow...) and a better book with old German ribbons

Could it be a Kriegerverdienstmedallie on white/black ribbon I seen one awarded to a W?rtemberger in a earlier thread

I thought they only was awarded to foreginers but clearly even people from other states could get one ?

Well, now its late in Sweden and time to get off to bed and sleep sweet dreams

Nighty all

Christer

Edited December 15, 2008 by christerd

[saschaw]

Christer, you got it, great! The Prussian pre-WWI "Krieger-Verdienstmedaille" is right for this combination. Almost half of Prussian's decorations could have been awarded "am wei?-schwarzen Band", but on a foreign (and yes, a Saxon or a W?rttemberger is a "foreigner" from Prussian view) NCO bar it cannot be anything else. No second Iron Cross, no Red Eagle Order, no Crown Order and especially no Luisenorden. By the way, the photo of one in wear you saw was presumably my W?rttemberger...

Rick, now was that too difficult? I have some more difficult things in stock, that might get funny...

[Guest Rick Research]

Stripes aren't the same width as the EK reversed so I assumed you were being TRICKY about some veterans' group award.

The only LOGICAL fellow for THAT (noncombatant ribbon) would have to be our friendly neighborhood secret field policeman from the Short List of 4 suspects above. The other guys were frontline combatants.

Bingo. One name. That's TWO identifications of nameless NCOs out of the entire Imperial German forces for me here this week. :rolleyes:

[saschaw]

Bingo. One name. That's TWO identifications of nameless NCOs out of the entire Imperial German forces for me here this week.

Sorry, but no. That "wei?-schwarze" Krieger-Verdienstmedaille is a pre war, peace time award to foreign NCOs who have not seen any combat before.

No clue who of the named it might be. I guess there are no lists for the KVM, are there any? I'm not even sure if those are mentioned anywhere as they were not a real part of Prussia's "Ordenssystem", if I remember correctly.

PS:

could please someone fixe the thread's name? Sachsen but not Saschen... ;)

[Guest Rick Research]

I've never seen ANY evidence of a "white black" ribbon ANYTHING being given for peacetime "normal" service in Germany to any German in the 20th century. He'd have gotten a Medal of the Red Eagle or Crown Orders or a General Decoration for simple peacetime service on any of the normal statutory awards.

[saschaw]

I've never seen ANY evidence of a "white black" ribbon ANYTHING being given for peacetime "normal" service in Germany to any German in the 20th century. He'd have gotten a Medal of the Red Eagle or Crown Orders or a General Decoration for simple peacetime service on any of the normal statutory awards.

You did, I'm quite sure you did. Or have I never before shown "him" here before? As said, those were given to "foreign" NCOs. Not too often it seems, but it was a pretty "common" award. Nothing "exotic". Still, that's the only one "in wear" in am aware of.

[Guest Rick Research]

That's not 20th century. Those tunics were last worn in 1892. THAT far back, this could just as well have been issued for an early colonial campaign 20 years before the Kolonialdenkm?nze was created.

[saschaw]

That's not 20th century. Those tunics were last worn in 1892. THAT far back, this could just as well have been issued for an early colonial campaign 20 years before the Kolonialdenkm?nze was created.

Sorry but no, could not have been as those medals were never given to German soldiers in the colonies. Those would have received a MEZ2 while KVMs would have gone to Blacks - and he does not really look Black... ;o)

Plus, I'm unaware of any KVMs given for colonial campaigns on white-black ribbons. Not sure about that, but never saw that before.

[saschaw]

I'm not sure if there's a English translation of Hessenthal und Schreiber. Finally I looked it up there, there's written exactly what I thought and wrote. I might quote tomorrow, if someone wants it literally. Anyone interrested, please take a look at HuS 1324 and 1324a.

Edited December 31, 2008 by saschaw

[Leib Garde]

You did, I'm quite sure you did. Or have I never before shown "him" here before? As said, those were given to "foreign" NCOs. Not too often it seems, but it was a pretty "common" award. Nothing "exotic". Still, that's the only one "in wear" in am aware of.

I have been reviewing old photos of Imperial Germany and I have noticed from time to time that on some photos the soldiers have an award/badge on their waffenrocks that I am not familiar with. Could anyone enlighten me as to what these awards/badges are and why only a few wear them. They are warn on their left breast under their ribbon/ medal bar, seen in the photo from saschaw in this forum.

Blessings,

Patrick

[saschaw]

If were talking about the same: that's a long service award as they were given to EMs and NCOs in most German states from 19th century until 1913, when all those "old style brooches were changed for medals and crosses. There are many different ones: different classes, modells and states.

[Ulsterman]

also referred to as " (schnallen?) Schanlle"

they were replaced by medals in 1913, although some soldiers mistakenly kept older ribbons on their bars.

[Leib Garde]

If were talking about the same: that's a long service award as they were given to EMs and NCOs in most German states from 19th century until 1913, when all those "old style brooches were changed for medals and crosses. There are many different ones: different classes, modells and states.

Thank you, I was not sure what they were for, they look like a Meritorious Unit Citation award.

[Leib Garde]

also referred to as " (schnallen?) Schanlle"

they were replaced by medals in 1913, although some soldiers mistakenly kept older ribbons on their bars.

Thank you for the close up picture of the schanlle. What does the writing on it mean and do you have other examples of the schnallen?

[saschaw]

Anyone interrested, please take a look at HuS 1324 and 1324a.

As I had the scans just handy...

;)

[Ulsterman]

Thank you for the close up picture of the schanlle. What does the writing on it mean and do you have other examples of the schnallen?

"F.W. IV" Friedrich Wilhelm IVth-the Royal who created the award.

There are lots of these about-do a quick search and you'll find lots here on the forum. Also, the OMSA free database is usually quite good for these examples.

This is a Bavarian fire service one.

[Leib Garde]

As I had the scans just handy...

My Deutsche is very rusty, please translate. For me to look it up will take the best part of the day.

Blessings

[saschaw]

Sure Leib Garde, sorry. But it has nothing to do with your questions on this thread but rather with our "older" problem we were discussing in mid-december: H&S state Prussian Kriegerverdienstmedaillen were given on white and black ribbons from 1888 on to non-Prussian EMs and as well sometimes to Prussians like rangers etc. And, I'm still sure we have exactly this on the thread-starting ribbon bar to a NCO from Saxony.