QSA clasp query

[Tony]

Hello,

I recently bought a QSA to a 4413 Pte. H Neal who happens to be from the same part of London as my family and could therefore possibly be a distant relative.

It has 3 clasps - Elandslaagte, Orange Free State and Transvaal.

According to the medal roll of the 1st Bn. Devonshire Regt. he was entitled to the clasps Belfast, Elandslaagte and Defence of Ladysmith. Could there a reason for the clasps on his QSA not corresponding with those on the medal roll apart from someone maybe adding any 3 clasps in the past?

If anyone comes across his KSA please give me a shout.

Thanks

Tony

Edited December 27, 2008 by Tony

[Ed_Haynes]

Is there any indication of tampering with the suspension or clasp rivets? The roll is usually pretty authoritative.

[Chris Boonzaier]

I looked for him in the casualty records... Devonshire regt casualties are as scarce as cheese on a monty python cheese shop. He was not wounded.

best

Chris

P.S. could he have changed units? I had a medal where the man was in one unit with a couple of bars from there and some other bars on a roll for another unit.

Best

Chris

[Tony]

I have his service record.

He joined the Devonshire's in 1895 and apart from spending an awful lot of time behind bars, he stayed with the Devonshire's until about 1911.

Everything is packed away ready for my return to that place where my nose doesn't run but, if I get the time I'll grab it and write down some details.

Are those clasps rare? I'm wondering if they were used by someone for a different medal for some reason or other and the more common ones added to this QSA.

Tony

[Tony]

Is there any indication of tampering with the suspension or clasp rivets? The roll is usually pretty authoritative.

No Ed, they look as if they've been there from the word go. Saying that, I don't really have any experience with Victorian medals and the way their clasps were attached. If I can take a half decent photo of the clasps, you or someone else may be able to shed more light on it.

Tony

[Chris Boonzaier]

No Ed, they look as if they've been there from the word go. Saying that, I don't really have any experience with Victorian medals and the way their clasps were attached. If I can take a half decent photo of the clasps, you or someone else may be able to shed more light on it.

Tony

Not rare enough to take the trouble of changing them.

Maybe the bars were removed at some stage and someone just whacked these on years alter because they were just laying around?

[Brett Hendey]

Hi Tony

David Biggins' (2004) authoritative book on the Battle of Elandslaagte includes details of Neal on the Devonshire Regiment medal roll as follows:

4413 Pte Neal, H 3 bars Elandslaagte, Defence of Ladysmith, Belfast.

Notes: QSA (3) inc OFS & Tr excl DofL & Belf Glen 91

So it looks as though Neal's medal was sold in 1991 by Glendennings with the clasps as you have them.

Devonshire Regiment QSA's most commonly have the Elandslaagte/Defence of Ladysmith/Belfast clasp combination, but there are a few that have the Elandslaagte/OFS/Transvaal combination. Neal may in fact have been entitled to the former combination, but the latter was issued in error.

Regards

Brett

[Tony]

That's interesting Brett. Does this affect the value?

I bought the medal because of the possible family connection and I must admit, for a QSA, it wasn't at all cheap.

Tony

[Tony]

Sorry about the quality of the photos.

[peter monahan]

While some of my collector friends are prone to criticize our American brethren as "medal crazy & clasp happy" it isn't unknown in British units either: I've certainly seen medals to men who had added bars which others in same the unit were legitimately entitled to even if they themselves were not for some reason.

I also recall reading, years ago, an officer's account of travelling through South Africa - close to the end of the War - and watching some of the troops on his train "awarding" theselves for one of the state bars (Trasvaal?) as soon as they'd crossed the boundary of that state. Perhaps this gent felt he should have gotten the bar and wasn't inclined to let the lack of his name on some list stop him from wearing it!

Or, has been suggested, he may simply have been the victim of a clerical error by an anonymous mint worker and never bothered to rectify it. If I were buying three bars, especially one with some added attraction such as this one, I'd be quite be comfortable with this one.

My tuppence worth and change! :cheeky:

Edited December 28, 2008 by peter monahan

[Brett Hendey]

Hi Tony

I agree with Peter about a clerical error being the most likely reason for the clasp combination on your medal. I think a QSA with three "battle" clasps is more desirable (and hence more valuable) than a medal with one "battle" clasp and two "state" clasps. In other words, I would pay more for a QSA with the clasps Elandslaagte, Defence of Ladysmith & Belfast than one with Elandslaagte, Orange Free State & Transvaal clasps. If the clasps on your medal were fraudulently changed, it has decreased rather than increased the value of the medal, which rather defeats the object of a fraud, hence favouring the "clerical error" option.

According to the roll, your man was entitled to three "battle" clasps on his medal and perhaps it should be valued that way, rather than with its present clasp combination, although I am sure that some collectors would disagree. I think opinion would also be divided as to whether you should replace the OFS & Tvl clasps with DoL and Belfast ones.

The 2009 Medal Yearbook values Elandslaagte QSA's to the British Army at 350 - 400 gbp, which I think is a low estimate.

Regards

Brett

[Tony]

That's made me feel a little better.

I bought the medal from a dealer who I trust. The price including a copy of his service record which shows he was a very bad boy, cost 350 GBP.

I suppose he just couldn't be bothered to have things changed and was more occupied with his HL (hard labour?) convictions.

Tony

[Ulsterman]

I'd like to check to see if it was sold at Spinks or Wallis in the 1960s/70s.

[Michael Johnson]

As has been said, clasp errors are not uncommon on QSAs. It could even be as simple as the Mint running short on battle clasps and awarding the State clasp in lieu.