Mecklenburg mounted LS medal.

[CRBeery]

Here is one that is not so easy to find.

[CRBeery]

The back.

[CRBeery]

The LS.

[VtwinVince]

That's a great spange, with an unusual combination.

[Wild Card]

That's a great spange, with an unusual combination.

Exactly, I agree - my kind of bar

Congratulations :cheers:

[Guest Rick Research]

First instinctive reaction is-- a ZAHLMEISTER. That combination-- a Prussian Crown Order 4 without anything from Mecklenburg-- SHOULD be traceable.

Don't find a match in Mecklenburg units in 1914.

Might have ben a non-regimental military clerk type "invisible" to Rank Lists-- but the most recent Schwerin Court & State Handbook I have is 1906.

This is definitely an example of where a bar NOT having other awards on it will be the key to tracking down the owner.

[Guest Rick Research]

OK--

TWO suspects-- Zahlmeister-Oberzahlmeister-Stabszahlmeister aD Karl Jermiess (born 1859) from L?beck Inf Rgt 162-- who did NOT get a L?beck Hanseatic Cross during the war. Not known to have China steel which was never shown in Rank Lists.

or

Proviantamt Direktor aD Friedrich R?wer in Altona. Born 1851. Just the sort of guy to have gotten a steel China (for packing socks and sandwiches) but again not known if he got that. Received a MStMV2 on noncombatant ribbon during the war.

The PAIR of a KO4 and MD2 is quite uncommon with no other awards. Both the above would have had the 1897 Centenary Medal.

Two possible out of the Imperial German Army. :catjava:

[CRBeery]

Wow, I never considered that this could be traceable! Here are some other items that came out of the same house. Maybe a name?

First the other bar:

Edited June 4, 2009 by CRBeery

[CRBeery]

The old bar was in a small wooden case with this on the back. It looks like ball point pen to me.

Edited June 4, 2009 by CRBeery

[CRBeery]

There was also a SWB and two cards in the group. Could this be the name? There was a common three place WW1 era bar in the group but I was too poor to get it also.

[Guest Rick Research]

In cases of really ODD combinations of otherwise "common" awards, it is most often the case that minimalist means a better chance than more. MOST Beamten who had the Mecklenburg long service and struggled along to get a Prussian Crown also had an NCO merit award from Mecklenburg. So "more" on this bar would have increased the suspects with even less cahnce of sorting them out.

Did YOU get these other items/b], or are they Out There? Are these all LOCAL TO YOU or were/are they on ebay from Baden? Where they are makes a very big difference as to possible attribution.

[Guest Rick Research]

Sa? is an exceptionally good THIRD "suspect." He did have the China in steel-- problem I've been working on is figuring out from the sources available to me if he had the Mecklenburg XV.

In 1902 Siekmann's Beamten Rank List-- which does not show long service or commemorative awards he was up in the IX. Armeekorps--shown here as "9" column:

[Guest Rick Research]

The 1917 Siekmann's is no help, since it still shows him with nothing else:

[Guest Rick Research]

An Ober-Intendanturregistrator was a clerical "paper pusher" official with a rank equivalent to Captain. "R-R" was for Rechnungsrat-- which was an additional salary title that made him in effect a "Senior Captain" with shoulder boards that looked like a Schutzpolizei Meister with 2 rosette pips.

HOWEVER, we DO have the 1929 Intendantur Ehren Rangliste and here he is:

Born in 1856, in the army since 1877-- this confirms his China in steel. It shows his post-WW1 Prussian XXV Years Service Cross--which would have replaced any earlier long service award.

He also racked up a "white-black" noncombatant Iron Cross, the Prussian War Effort Cross, and Baden's War Merit CRoss while serving in the Home Establishment of BADEN XIVth Army Corps.

And the final suggestion that he had a MECKLENBURG tie? He shows "MK2" here. What he ACTUALLY had was a quite scarce indeed Mecklenburg-Schwerin "MK2r"-- on the "red" noncombatant ribbon, according to the Mecklenburg rolls being worked on. There would have been absolutely NO reason for a headquarters paper processor in Baden to receive such a thing... unless he was a subject of Mecklenburg.

He would have been 64 when discharged in 1920. Many an Imperial officer--let alone obscure official--never bothered to remount what would have been his pre-war medal bar. Where would a pensioned paper shuffler have worn it, in 1929 or whenever?

I have no way/sources to establish whether he did have the "MDA2" XV Years Cross, but if somebody does have something that shows the "invisible" corps of Beamten who were NOT shown in regular Rank Lists, he'd be a match on the 4 crucial points:

Prussian Crown Order 4

China Medal in steel

pre 1897 military service

Mecklenburg XV Years Service cross-- and NO OTHER pre-war awards than these 4.

Without the calling cards, I'd have never even considered him. But based on this being obtained in the same place as the 1870 Baden bar, I'd say this moves him-- as a ? Mecklenburger retired in Baden-- to Prime Suspect status.

This sort of person may not be very "exciting," but they were the gnomes who kept the military bureaucracy running, with low status and low pay. AND incredibly rare groups like this one. :rolleyes:

[CRBeery]

Well, now it gets scary. I went back and checked my files and there were some other items purchased with the group that I had forgotten! The comment about remounting and these two packeted medals is dead on. I also bought three lengths of ribbon that are here some where. I guess I will have to shuffle some stuff around to reunite the group as best as I can. I never expected all of this.

I never connected all of these until Rick put all of the pieces together for me! Thanks Rick! The Prussian war effort cross was there but I left it as it is common. :banger:

Edited June 5, 2009 by CRBeery

[Guest Rick Research]

Sa? it is! :cheers:

[Komtur]

VERY instructive again

There is a bar with few decorations and there is a person known, who fits after research only in some of his decorations, while some others are missing on the bar. With the single decorations, obviously belonging to the group, there is proof enough, that it is the orderbar of Rechnungsrat Sa?.

After 1918 there often seems to be no more interest to complete a bar with the late war or after the war decorations for proud wearing. Instead of that, they where thrown in the drawer with all the memory and the past times

Thanks, Komtur.

[arb]

VERY instructive again

There is a bar with few decorations and there is a person known, who fits after research only in some of his decorations, while some others are missing on the bar. With the single decorations, obviously belonging to the group, there is proof enough, that it is the orderbar of Rechnungsrat Sa?.

After 1918 there often seems to be no more interest to complete a bar with the late war or after the war decorations for proud wearing. Instead of that, they where thrown in the drawer with all the memory and the past times

Thanks, Komtur.

Just to add additonal sources to strengthen the id of Rudolf Sass: On page 27 of the "Rangliste der Intendanturbeamten des Deutschen Reicheeres, der Kaiserlichen Marine und des Reichs Kolonioal Amts f?r 1914 (abgeschlossen am 10. Juni 1914), E.S. Mittler & Sohn, Berlin, 1914, there is listed Rechn. Rat Sass. He was assigend to XIV AK and is listed as having the PKrO4 and MD2 (Milit?rdienstkreuz f?r 15 j?hrige Dienstzeit). Further confirmation can be found in the 5th Supplement to the 1905 Ordensliste on page 244, which announces the awarding of the PKrO4 and povides his given name as Rudolf.

Andy

[Guest Rick Research]

AhhhhHA! I have never seen an actual RANK LIST for the Beamten. The Siekmann pocket books don't show full awards.

:cheers:

[arb]

AhhhhHA! I have never seen an actual RANK LIST for the Beamten. The Siekmann pocket books don't show full awards.

The number and variety of the Ranglisten is simply astounding. Just when I think I've seen the last one another type pops up. My most recent pick up was the "Allgemeine Rang- und Quartierliste f?r das VIII., IX. und X. Armeecorps und die Reserve Infanterie Division des Deutschen Bundesheeres f?r 1860" This little beauty, a privately created work of an LT in the 1. Infanterie Bataillon L?beck, provides a level of detail I have not seen anywhere else on the Bundesheer. I'd just love to get an 1866 edition, if one was even prepared.

[Guest Rick Research]

The only one I ever lent to an incipient loonie, who went totally bonkers while in possession of it so I never got it back was...

a special little 1914 Prussian Guards Corps directory.

It not only listed their home addresses and phone numbers,

it specified who was whose son/brother AND

it listed the make and model year of automobiles they owned. :banger:

[arb]

Now that would have been something to see!!