Wild Card Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Gentlemen, I have to open by saying that in my opinion, at least for Imperial German collectors, this year’s OMSA convention was the best in recent years. The variety and quality of items being offered was outstanding. For the first time in a long time, I had a difficult time making a choice as what I would, or could, bring home. After much consideration, the winner is - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 I know, I know. Here it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 What is the second battle bar from top? I can only see Wörth ??? Le Mans Paris (Oh-for-an-Epson! ) Now this is EXTREMELY interesting. We have us here a Prussian (can't always tell if old fashioned officer or an NCO with this style in the mid 1890s (1895-96 = battle bars but no Centenary Medal... nice narrowed in time frame) whose only combat award (last as "foreign") was from Mecklenburg-Schwerin... and there are only TWO people now alive who know how many Schwerin 1864 FF Crosses were handed out... and to whom. When they get the rolls done, I think a name should not be out of the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted August 25, 2009 Author Share Posted August 25, 2009 Hi Rick, Sorry about the quality of the pictures. They were pretty decent until I had to squeeze them down to fit the Forum’s limits. Anyway, the missing bar is Loigny-Poupry; and I have to tell you that even when viewed up close, it is a bit hard to read - small letters a bit polished down. Yes, an Epson scanner would be nice. The problem is that every time I get a little money in my Epson Scanner Super Savings Account (ESSSA, for short), I go and spend it on a silly medal bar or something. Identification of the holder of this bar would be incredible. Until you mentioned it, I never gave the possibility a thought. Best wishes, Wild Card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeheld Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Hi Wild Card, at first I have to say: NICE BAR! Andreas was sending me pictures before you got this bar. My Opinion is that the MVK 1864 is wrong on this bar. According to the battle bars its should (prussian is possible, but the chance is much lower) be a Mecklenburgian Soldier, but Mecklenburgian troups are never involved in Denmark at 1864. I believe here is a MVK 1870 missing. Best regards Seeheld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 First off, outstanding bar! Secondly, this may be true, the Meck piece could be for 1870. Not too awful bad to find, but some effort would have to be made. Thirdly, given the precedence, I was thinking Prussian who received the 1864 cross. Is that not a possibility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeheld Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Yes, prussians received also the MVK 1864, but in combination with the battle bars from 1870, I believe is the chance much bigger that a MVK 1870 is the correct one. Anyway, the MVK 1864 is an original one! Regards Seeheld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Ah welcome back! We worry the whole time you are off in the pirate-infested oceans! I won't ask how many 1864s/ 1870s there were until the Giant Mecklenburg Schwerin Super Rolls are ready, but I hope from that and process of elimination we WILL be able to identify this bar's original owner. I've just finished Strelitz's 1870 Crosses (not insanely recorded like 1914+ ) and there were a surprising number of Prussians who got that and no EK2! But remove the ones with Red Eagles later and so on... I hope a name will turn up from this. And without your work, it would never be possible! :beer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeheld Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Thank you for the welcome. I sailed also in the Gulf of Aden, but without problems... I used the time and finished all MVKs from Schwerin so far as available. The MVK 1st class and 2nd class are published until May 1917 only. All together are ca. 42000 Names in my list. I will hand over to Daniel in Potsdam in September. But back to this wonderful bar. In my rolls I found 107 Prussians from General to Gefreiter. It's not so easy to find out a name. According to the battle bars its should (prussian is possible, but the chance is much lower) be a Mecklenburgian Soldier, but Mecklenburgian troups are never involved in Denmark at 1864. This is bullsh... I mean this soldier should be in a prussian regiment which fought with mecklenburgian Regiments. Because Mecklenburgian Regiment arrived the front later after the Battle of Wörth. Many prussian brave soldiers are arwarded with the MVK 1870 due to the Battle of Loigny-Poupry, Le Mans and Paris. This is the reason why I believe the MVK 1864 is not correct. But maybe I'm wrong, it's a theorie only. Best Regards Seeheld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Well, if the 1864 turns out to be a "replacement" for a missing 1870..... I'd love to meet the fellow who had a "spare"..... :speechless: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VtwinVince Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Very nice combo on this bar. I only have one with a pre-1914 Mecklenburg MVK, so I know these are not growing on trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share Posted August 27, 2009 Gentlemen, Thank you for your interest and compliments regarding my new bar. As I indicated in my introduction (post #4), I never considered identification to be possible; and even though you/we have not come up with a positive holder, your work and the prospect of doing so is most encouraging. While we are on the subject I would like to ask a question about the Mecklenburg-Schwerin MVK series. While the crosses for 1864, 1870, etc. apply to obvious wars and campaigns, I am wondering about the application or purpose of the crosses which do not have do not have a year on them. Could one of you please explain this? Many thanks in advance, Wild Card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beau Newman Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 The best I can glean from Hess. & Schr. is that the undated crosses were awarded in the 1905-06 time frame for combat in the colonies, particularly DSWA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted August 27, 2009 Author Share Posted August 27, 2009 Thank you Beau. Although something a little more specific would have been nice, I suppose that in view of the overlapping time frames of these campaigns coupled with the low number of such awards, this makes sense. Best wishes, Wild Card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeheld Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Gentlemen, ... I am wondering about the application or purpose of the crosses which do not have do not have a year on them. Could one of you please explain this? Many thanks in advance, Wild Card In the Hessenthal and Schreiber Book are many mistakes. But sofar the book is correct as the MVK without date was also arwarded in 1905/06. In reality This rare cross was arwarded from 11.10.1889 until 13.11.1913 for different campaigns in Afrika (Kamerun, Südwest-Adfrika, Deutsch-Ost-Afrika) and also against Japan in 1905. Best Regards Seeheld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeheld Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Gentlemen, ... I am wondering about the application or purpose of the crosses which do not have do not have a year on them. Could one of you please explain this? Many thanks in advance, Wild Card In the Hessenthal and Schreiber Book are many mistakes. But sofar the book is correct as the MVK without date was also arwarded in 1905/06. In reality This rare cross was arwarded from 11.10.1889 until 13.11.1913 for different campaigns in Afrika (Kamerun, Südwest-Adfrika, Deutsch-Ost-Afrika) and also against Japan in 1905. Best Regards Seeheld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 My understanding of the undated crosses is the same as Seeheld (welcome home!). Undated crosses were used for the various "campaigns" during the inter-war years (1870-1914), primarily for Colonial campaigns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 Those would also have been awarded in 1914. The Grand Duke was QUITE a sluggard about OFFICIALLY renewing these-- did not do so until 28 February 1915 (!!!) BUT decades ago in college I came across (I have forgotten forgotten which one) a Berlin "Illustrated Weekly" type magazine which showed pictures of him cheerfully handing out his Crosses in... 1914!!! So those HAD to have been the "no date" version UNLESS they were instantly MADE with the 1914 date but not made "statutory" until 1915. I have never seen a no date one in an otherwise all 1914+ medal bar. But at least we shall soon have names and dates and numbers from the work that seeheld and Daniel are doing on Schwerin. (Even though Strelitz was literally INSANE, I am glad that "half" fell to me because... I am finished with THEIR Roll! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K. Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 (edited) Oh....lovely bar! If it can be identified, even better. Thanks for sharing it, Wild Card! I do love those Mecklenburg crosses! Steve Edited August 28, 2009 by Steve K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeheld Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 I have in my collection a strange bar with a MVK for colonies but arwarded in 1.WK... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeheld Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 I believe it's was a mistake of the juwlier or the comlpete bar is a fake. But the MVK is an original. @ Wild card I still try to find out a name for you, and it's really difficult. But I have still a small chance... Best regards Seeheld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saschaw Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 Interresting frack bar. From the averse I would have guessed #1 had to be a mis-ribboned HOH3X... But from the reverse, I'd rather say this is a modern fake bar. :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted August 29, 2009 Share Posted August 29, 2009 I share the with that Frackspange-- 1) Backing is for a normal style bar-- with the catch "up" if it was pressed, the catch would unfasten and the bar would fall off the wearer! 2) "oversewn" backing all around which is typical of "over-compensation" in forging these 3) the WEIRD peacetime Hohenzollern ribbon first. I have seen some very strange things out of Mecklenburg (they had their own Rules-- posted in the Ribbon Bar article on the other half of this website) but the Frackspange does not comply with those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Card Posted August 30, 2009 Author Share Posted August 30, 2009 Seeheld, Thank you for your interest and effort. This whole exercise has made me realize how my mind is so far behind the reality of what today’s identification experts can do. I would never have thought that identification of this bar was even remotely possible. There are a number of factors that are making this possible that did not exist until a short time ago. Mainly, they are (1) the ability to now record and access award records, (2) exchange this material by the internet and (3) a group of individuals who have the desire and dedication to generously commit themselves and their talent to this end. Once again, I regret so much the fact that pioneers like Eric Ludvigsen, George Seymour and Neal O’Connor could not be with us to see what is now being done and to be a part of it, Thanks to you all, Wild Card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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