speedytop Posted October 18, 2009 Posted October 18, 2009 And I repeat it once more, in a large set of an aristocratic family I found a BB&Co TWM with the red 'box'. All the decorations, documents and cases are originals, without any doubts. And therefore I assume, that the Lieutenant General got his TWM from BB&Co with this paper bag: Uwe
demir Posted October 19, 2009 Posted October 19, 2009 And I repeat it once more, in a large set of an aristocratic family I found a BB&Co TWM with the red 'box'. All the decorations, documents and cases are originals, without any doubts. And therefore I assume, that the Lieutenant General got his TWM from BB&Co with this paper bag: Uwe Hi, This is a good point. Either BB&Co also used the official package (red carton box) or he was able to receive the original box. But I believe since he is an aristocrat, a better quality TWM was given to him in the official red box. (I hope ) demir
Claudius Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 Hi Terry, the left part of the picture in my Post (12) is reflected. Without reflection you can see, that it is the same indentation on your TWM, but only a part: Uwe It appears I have to accept the majority verdict on this metal mark on the back as being the Sultan's tugra. I can find no documentation to support any other claim. I can find no research that discusses this mark and having any other meaning...yet. However, like the lone standout in a jury room full of guilty votes, I have to continue to point out an irritating observation. Why is the Tugra reversed? When every other metal-smith, silver-smith, and gold-smith for centuries have had their metal stamps in reverse in order for the mark to show "correctly", are to believe that the Turkish metal workers "goofed" on this fundamental and didn't want to fix it?
TerryG Posted October 20, 2009 Author Posted October 20, 2009 Doesn't all this simply confirm that this is indeed a reverse mark left by the Tugra being pressed into place during manufacture? If you look at my Star, it also has a small part of the same reverse Tugra in the very same place. A true maker's mark would more likley be found in slightly different locations/orientation. The presence of the letters E.S. on Uwe's Star would seem to indicate a non-Ottoman/Turkish manufacturer?
demir Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) Doesn't all this simply confirm that this is indeed a reverse mark left by the Tugra being pressed into place during manufacture? If you look at my Star, it also has a small part of the same reverse Tugra in the very same place. A true maker's mark would more likley be found in slightly different locations/orientation. The presence of the letters E.S. on Uwe's Star would seem to indicate a non-Ottoman/Turkish manufacturer? Terry is right. If it had been a Turkish Manufacturer then E.S would have been the old Ottoman script (Arabic letters) instead of Latin letters. demir :blush: Edited October 20, 2009 by demir
Ulsterman Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 Hi, I think it is the image of the TUGRA created by pressure. ES sorry I have no clue! Best wishes demir That's what I think. We have (some of us) discussed this almost a decade ago as I recall (another time, another place ). My opinion was that the die stempel was made from a different medal, another, earlier, original star and the impression from the original medal was (accidentally?) left in. When this happened is a good question. It could have been an original primary die reused as a backing stempel, or maybe something else. I would welcome input from older collectors as to when/where the "reverse tugra" THM medals were obtained. Stempel= German term for the bottom/rear piece of a die press "mold". I am unsure as to the english word for this.
Claudius Posted October 20, 2009 Posted October 20, 2009 Doesn't all this simply confirm that this is indeed a reverse mark left by the Tugra being pressed into place during manufacture? If you look at my Star, it also has a small part of the same reverse Tugra in the very same place. A true maker's mark would more likley be found in slightly different locations/orientation. The presence of the letters E.S. on Uwe's Star would seem to indicate a non-Ottoman/Turkish manufacturer? Indeed, it does. And yet it is not the same mark. Post 12 is ideal for seeing it. If you would superimpose the backside metal mark over the obverse Tugra you can see that they don't line up. Simple Photoshop manuever would prove this out. The "Stand" part of the Tugra is much narrower and it doesn't match the obverse. Additionally, the outer and inner "Egg" are there, but the "Tughs", "Arms", and "Fringe" are all truncated or omitted. I can't offer an alternate explanation at this time. Likewise I don't know how to explain the "E.S." mark. If this "E.S." does indicate a non-Ottoman/Turkish manufacture, then we have a non-Turkish badge with a Tugra mark made from a specially designed Tugra marking tool that changed the Sultan Signature's Tughs, Arms and Fringe, but didn't bother to reverse the tool image so that it would appear correctly on the piece. Puzzling.
mahoni Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 I am trying to post some TWM pictures from my collection. Fingers crossed.
mahoni Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 On the back of of the srewback Star one can easily see the pressed out reverse image of the Tugra. It is not a makers mark. Regards to all. (Demir has got lovely Stars, tebrikler)
TerryG Posted October 23, 2009 Author Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) Great collection. Thanks for showing. Can you post better photos of the screwback one? Edited October 23, 2009 by TerryG
demir Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) Dear Mahoni, I am unbeliavebly happy to see this lovely collection , and beautiful presentation cases. I am also a little bit jealous! Congragulations, hope that we can find more too add our collections. Is it possible to post bigger pictures of the Tugras on Slatzeks? One has a block Tugra, the other has a Tugra which shows emaille through it. (I call these kind of Tugras "telkari" All the best demir Edited October 23, 2009 by demir
mahoni Posted October 24, 2009 Posted October 24, 2009 Hi Demir, thank you for your comment on the collection. Those two Turkish war medals are made by the same maker Sedlatzek, possibly for two different market or at different periods. I will try to get better pictures later on. Saygilar and good hunting for new medals. Kimaho
mahoni Posted October 24, 2009 Posted October 24, 2009 Great collection. Thanks for showing. Can you post better photos of the screwback one? thanks. Will try later on.
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