Marine Werksführer Carl Noeske

[M Hunter]

Gentlemen,

I was over on WAF recently and spotted this little ribbon bar for sale, by Noor.

After a search here on GMIC i see it has never been posted, therefore never discussed. (?)

It was my intention to purchase the bar, but after doing some reading here (especially on Rick's Research thread) i have come to the question; what is the providence that this was Marine Werksführer Carl Noeske's ribbon bar?

The awards are common to say the least, but does this make the combination common? I would appreciate any help or information on this ribbon bar! Did anyone here make the initial identification?

My thanks

Matt

P.S. I have sent a message to Noor, so i hope he can join in on this discussion. ;)

[Noor]

Hi,

This bar was up here around year ago I quess. I got it from Heiko and I think (not sure) he purchased the bar from NavalMark? I hope they can clarify the source here.

Regards,

Noor

[Guest Rick Research]

This is an Invisible Person (Beamter) who does not show up in Imperial, Reichsmarine, or Kriegsmarine Rank and Seniority Lists showing awards.

The only way to establish attribution is with documentation.

When the Awards & Officers Research Collective™©® provides an identity, it is on the basis of multiple sources all of which we can SHOW as proof

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=40299

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=40456

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=40461

et zillions of ceteras

unless a paper source is too fragile to damage doing so. Mostly we will just provide a highlight here or there because

a) it's work doing research and the results ARE provided to our GMIC friends free;

b) we provide the data needed-- rank dates, assignments, award dates, for anybody so inclined to Go Forth & Verify on their own;

c) it'd be really really boring for the rest of you looking at pages of stuff in Martin Luther typeface or 19th century clerk-Schrift.

Anybody has got to be able to come up with the same results from the same sources. :beer:

[saschaw]

The only way to establish attribution is with documentation.

That must be right with this bar. I think Timo is right assuming it came from NavalMark's former navy collection. Many named bars that cannot be proven by just what we have from rank and award lists - but they used to come from the wearers and their families.

:beer:

[Guest Rick Research]

But it is NOT "cannot be proven by just what we have from rank and award lists"

rather it is nothing can be proven WITHOUT such documentation. (and photos and Urkunden and...)

Anybody has to be able to get the same hard data results from the same sources, just like a scientific experiment.

For instance--I have a miniature 1866 Campaign Cross that belonged to the grandfather of an SS officer, who made a small gift of it. I "know" its attribution but there is absolutely no "proof" of it-- only this "story."

Research Cyborgs find that proof. Trust and certainty are not enough. To pass items along from one collection to another, into the future, the attribution has to be correct and always verifiable.

It's simpler for people who don't care about the wearer, only the bright shiny THING, but for those of us who would rather know that something belonged to This Specific Individual person, getting that right is essential.

Why else would I be awake at 3 AM worrying about Luke's maddeningly unidentified Old Style ribbon bar? It's not MY ribbon bar. Nobody could even begin to pay me for my "billable hours." When one of us finally finds the guy, he'll probably turn out to be some utter nobody who dropped dead as an Oberstleutnant in 190X. But that doesn't matter!!! I just have to--HAVE TO-- get it RIGHT. That's what happens to Research Cyborgs. :whistle:

[M Hunter]

But it is NOT "cannot be proven by just what we have from rank and award lists"

rather it is nothing can be proven WITHOUT such documentation. (and photos and Urkunden and...)

Anybody has to be able to get the same hard data results from the same sources, just like a scientific experiment.

For instance--I have a miniature 1866 Campaign Cross that belonged to the grandfather of an SS officer, who made a small gift of it. I "know" its attribution but there is absolutely no "proof" of it-- only this "story."

Research Cyborgs find that proof. Trust and certainty are not enough. To pass items along from one collection to another, into the future, the attribution has to be correct and always verifiable.

It's simpler for people who don't care about the wearer, only the bright shiny THING, but for those of us who would rather know that something belonged to This Specific Individual person, getting that right is essential.

Why else would I be awake at 3 AM worrying about Luke's maddeningly unidentified Old Style ribbon bar? It's not MY ribbon bar. Nobody could even begin to pay me for my "billable hours." When one of us finally finds the guy, he'll probably turn out to be some utter nobody who dropped dead as an Oberstleutnant in 190X. But that doesn't matter!!! I just have to--HAVE TO-- get it RIGHT. That's what happens to Research Cyborgs.

Thank you Rick. I see what you are saying. Without him being listed in the rank-list, and without documentation, there is no real proof that this bar is belonging to the Marine Werksführer.

On another note and as a point of interest for myself who is not very fluent in German, what is a Marine Werksführer?

Thank you

Matt

[Paul C]

I completely agree with Rick. The sources must be provided. If I buy a bar which the seller attributed to a specific person I always ask for the source AND check it myself. I think, in this hobby, we have a tendence to trust the seller. While trust can be good I like the saying "trust but verify".

[Guest Rick Research]

Hard to say what a "Werksführer" did since I have no listings of any. Presumably some sort of construction supervisor-- but of what? Vessels? Buildings? Torpedoes? Not even sure what the "rank" equivalent would be.

Beamten are really hard to track because most of them are "invisible" most of the time.

[NavalMark]

I bought the complete group of documents from Helmut Weitze about 12 - 15 years ago. I have send PM to Matt that i still have paper-copies of:

-Centenarmedaille

-Prussian Landwehrdienstauszeichnung 2nd class

-Verdienstkreuz für Kriegshilfe

-Ehrenkreuz für Kriegsteilnehmer

-Wehrmacht Dienstauszeichnung IV. - I. Klasse

-Olympia-Ehrenzeichen

-Kriegsverdienstkreuz 2.Klasse

Also his patents to

-Marinehilfswerkführer 1908

-Marinewerkführer 1917

-Marinewerkmeister 1925

-Werkstättenvorsteher 1927

His last designation on the document for KVK II.mSchw. in 1943 is Marinebetriebsingenieur. I sold the group 5 or 6 years ago an will send copies of the docs to Matt. So it was a real physical grouping of someone who would never appear in a Ranglist or could be identified by award rolls.

Omly missing is and was the document for Iron Cross 2nd class 1914.

Noeske was a typical naval official of the imperial navy, was in the civil "parking zone" until 1935 and received in 1936 all four classes of the Wehrmacht Dienstauszeichnung.

Regards

NavalMark

Edited November 1, 2009 by NavalMark

[NavalMark]

Werkführer and Werkmeister belonged to the subaltern personal of the imperial naval yards. They were at least craftsmen in a Werkstatt with higher level than a normal worker.

They could be compared with Feldwebel/Vizefeldwebel ranks and they wore a plain blue jacket with silver navy-buttons. There designation was only on the visorcap, an imperial crown over the Kokarde for Werkführer and imperial crown with a clear anchor below for Werkmeister.

Of cause there is no EK II document, i wrote the post above without having a look on his ribbon bar.

Regards

NavalMark

Edited November 1, 2009 by NavalMark

[NavalMark]

@Matt: I have tried several times to send the scans of Noeskes documets to your email, it does not work !

Please give me a correct adress via PN.

Here Noeskes award document for the long-service-award I. - IV. class .....

Best wishes

Markus

[M Hunter]

@Matt: I have tried several times to send the scans of Noeskes documets to your email, it does not work !

Please give me a correct adress via PN.

Here Noeskes award document for the long-service-award I. - IV. class .....

Best wishes

Markus

Markus,

Sorry for all the confusion, PM sent.

My best

Matt

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

if we assume that it is established that it is Noeske's (which I have no reasion to doubt)..

Would it effect the value? If so, in a positive or negative way?

Best

Chris

[Paul C]

Documents and proof of identification, should in my mind, increase the value.