Now this is an interesting medal bar!

[Stogieman]

Well, if the opening bid wasn't 600- Euro this would make for one heck of a project!! How about:

Prussian order of the Crown 3

(I'm assuming RAO2 at the neck??)

W?rttemburg Order of The Crown

W?rttemburg Long Service

Baden Henry The Lion RK (??)

1870/71 KDM

Prussian Centennial Medal

Now, the Prinzen=Gr??e Centennial Medal is very impressive, as is the bar itself... but 600- Euro??

Yeesh!

[Guest Rick Research]

Probably MEDALS in the first two spots, with this style noncommissioned hook back mounting. Sometimes it is harder to find the medals to these Orders than the Orders themselves.

[saschaw]

I just liked to buy this bar, but it was to expensive, also in my opinion.

The decorations are correct as shown on the pictures, but not Nr. 4 which might have been a imperial Russian one. Number one is OEK 2984, Number 2 is 2997 or 2997/1 - no Red Eagle order, no Crown order at the neck ...

I love the Centenarmedaille little prinzen size/big mini. This one about 25mm? Never seen in this size again ...

BTW, the "Orden Heinrichs des L?wen" is from Brunswick, not from Baden ..

[Paul R]

What price tag would be normal for this piece?

[MichaW]

... the problem with this medal bar was, that all medals are minis! Only in 8 ... 12 mm !!!

regards

Michael

[saschaw]

... the problem with this medal bar was, that all medals are minis! Only in 8 ... 12 mm !!!

regards

Michael

Are you sure these are (well, the Zivilverdienstmedialle DOES look strange)?

Did maybe YOU get it for a reasonable price, or has the seller it still?

So this one might even be a little bit more interessting, but actutally even less worth than I thught, as I thought it were real size medal bar with are extremely rare 25mm(?) Centenarmedaille ...

[Stogieman]

Greetings all. I don't remember this being a miniature medal bar, but that is entirely possible and I agree. As minis.... very valuable with much collector interest!

[MichaW]

... here is a pic with scale. I bought it for less than 500,- Euro but I had think that the medals orginal size ...

[saschaw]

Very nice group anyhow, but methinks the "Pfennig" does not match to the bar, there should be, at least in my opinion, a Russian award - but I don't know which ...

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

I?m sorry, but this bar really bothers me for a number of reasons. Please do not dismiss it because it is a miniature bar; regulations still are to be followed.

The first thing that jumps out, and I?m surprised that no one has mentioned it, is that we have an 1870 - 71 non combat medal on the combat ribbon. Next is the various sizes of the decorations, which I will address later. Last is the order of the ribbons, forget the medals; but I am frankly not knowledgeable enough to get into all of the technicalities which might arise there.

Now, going back to the sizes of the medals themselves. After over 25 years of collecting miniatures, on the side, I don?t recall ever having seen such a relatively basic group made up of medals of such significantly different sizes. When I say relatively basic, I am allowing for groups with rather exotic/rare decorations where size variations are sometimes found. That said, I think that we may have a good ribbon set with medals conveniently available attached; so let?s rework it, and these are just suggestions.

First, and most important, replace the 1870 -71 medal with a combatant medal. Next, in position 1, put a Friedrich Order knight 1st or 2nd class with swords. Next, would be a knight without swords to the Order of the W?rttemburg Crown; then an officer?s long service cross (I can?t tell what we have there now). Next, of course, comes that bothersome red ribbon with the narrow yellow and red side stripes that we have dealt with before, it?s not Henry the Lion - a Russian St. Ann (?).

It is possible to work the group with the ?merit? medals; but either way, it is worth noting that if we are dealing with the Friedrich Order and the Order of the W?rttemburg Crown, then the ribbons are reversed, so maybe #1 is a Prussian Crown Order? That ribbon is a bit dark for a Friedrich Order.

Well, I guess I?ve possibly raised more questions than I?ve answered; but I do think that the answer is somewhere above. All suggestions are most welcome.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[saschaw]

The first thing that jumps out, and I?m surprised that no one has mentioned it, is that we have an 1870 - 71 non combat medal on the combat ribbon.

Well, noone metioned it as there is not any problem with it at all. The Prussian 1870er Denkm?nze could have been awarded:

- in Bronze am Band f?r K?mpfer

- in Stahl am Band f?r K?mpfer

- in Stahl am Band f?r Nichtk?mpfer

So I cannot understand what your problem is.

Also, the Merit medal of the Friedrichsorden (1st position) is an higher award than the civil merit medal (2nd one), so I cannot see theree any problem as well.

The only thing in my honest opinion is the "Pfennig" on the Russian St. Anna ribbon ...

[MichaW]

Here coms a pic from the reverse.

The medals are:

W?rttemberg Medal of the Fridrich Orden in Gold King Wilhelm

W?rttemburg Medal for civil merit King Karl

W?rttemburg Long Service King Karl

"Pfennig" instead of a lost russian medal

KDM 1870/71

Prussian Centennial Medal

[saschaw]

"Pfennig" instead of a lost russian medal

Hey hey hey, I've got an idea

Maybe he still lived in 1914 and didn't want to wear the anemy's award anymore?

Sounds logical, doesn't it?

And as we will NEVER know the truth, if I were you, I would also not replace the Russian award.

[Wild Card]

Well, noone metioned it as there is not any problem with it at all. The Prussian 1870er Denkm?nze could have been awarded:

- in Bronze am Band f?r K?mpfer

- in Stahl am Band f?r K?mpfer

- in Stahl am Band f?r Nichtk?mpfer

So I cannot understand what your problem is.

Yes, of course, I am aware of the fact that the non combatant medal was awarded on the combatant ribbon (see below); but to the best of my knowledge such awards were exceptionally rare. I did not mean to imply that it was wrong, just very very rare - no problem.

[Wild Card]

I can not tell exactly from the picture, but if the medal in the second position is a ?Karl? (1864 - 1891) civil merit medal then it would be okay; but if it is a ?Wilhelm II? (1864 - 1891), then it is on the wrong ribbon, and that is what throws me (again, see below). Karl = no problem, Wilhelm II = problem. The different sizes of the medals = as I stated, a problem.

[Paul R]

Yes, of course, I am aware of the fact that the non combatant medal was awarded on the combatant ribbon (see below); but to the best of my knowledge such awards were exceptionally rare. I did not mean to imply that it was wrong, just very very rare - no problem.

Wow!

[MichaW]

If somebody has interest in these minature bar, send PM.

Michael

[saschaw]

Yes, of course, I am aware of the fact that the non combatant medal was awarded on the combatant ribbon (see below); but to the best of my knowledge such awards were exceptionally rare. I did not mean to imply that it was wrong, just very very rare - no problem.

Well, according to J. Nimmergut, opus magnum V, there were

- 1,107,756 in "Bronze am Band f?r K?mpfer"

- 341,949 in "Stahl am Band f?r K?mpfer"

- 57,094 in "Stahl am Band f?r Nichtk?mpfer"

awarded. Methought the "Stahl" medal were quite rarer than the Bronze ones, but the difference in whole isn't that extrem I used to think. Fairly often seen, in my opinion, are the "Stahl am Band f?r K?mpfer" which not makes me think anymore, if I know there were more than 300,000 awarded.

Extreme rare, I guess, are two "Stahl" on different ribbons on ONE bar - I've never seen another bar than yours, Wild Card - Congratulations.

[Wild Card]

Well, according to J. Nimmergut, opus magnum V, there were

- 1,107,756 in "Bronze am Band f?r K?mpfer"

- 341,949 in "Stahl am Band f?r K?mpfer"

- 57,094 in "Stahl am Band f?r Nichtk?mpfer"

awarded. Methought the "Stahl" medal were quite rarer than the Bronze ones, but the difference in whole isn't that extrem I used to think. Fairly often seen, in my opinion, are the "Stahl am Band f?r K?mpfer" which not makes me think anymore, if I know there were more than 300,000 awarded.

Extreme rare, I guess, are two "Stahl" on different ribbons on ONE bar - I've never seen another bar than yours, Wild Card - Congratulations.

Well, it is certainly difficult to argue with those numbers. I also always thought that there was a larger difference between the bronze and stahl awards. I can only attribute this to the possibility that more of the bronze medals wound up on military groups which have survived the times whereas the stahl medals, being non combatant, wound up being, more or less, single awards or were paired with another award which were then broken up and either lost through time or perceived lack of importance.

At the same time, it still seems to me that by far, the majority of stahl medals that I have seen on groups over the years, have been on the non combatant ribbon. Live and learn.

Incidentally, if you would like to join my confusion and since you mentioned the magnum opus, take a look at the ribbon pictured with item #4221, page 1746, vol. 12.

Thank you for the compliment on the group. Since this thread started out on a miniature bar, I thought that you might like to see that group in miniature.

Edited August 23, 2006 by Wild Card

[Stogieman]

Hmmmm.... see post #1 !!

[saschaw]

At the same time, it still seems to me that by far, the majority of stahl medals that I have seen on groups over the years, have been on the non combatant ribbon. Live and learn.

Hmm ....

Honestly, I do NOT count them, but by now I saw many of all kinds on some forums, dealers and on Ebay. I have just five medal bars with 1870 Kriegsdenkm?nze, one in Bronze and the other four in Stahl, amung these two on the "Band f?r K?mpfer" and two on the "Band f?r Nichtk?mpfer". This, of course, does not show the real numbers of existing medals, but more my preferences in buying.

First a Prussian bar, with an extremely nice "Prinzengr??e" of the Centenarmedalle, the KO probably beeing sent back after death:

[saschaw]

Here again a "Stahl am Band f?r K?mpfer", to a W?rttemberg officer, with all the good stuff missing to the bar ...

[saschaw]

A, at least in my opinion, very nice bar to a Prussian fighter in 1848, with the "Medaille in Stahl Band f?r Nichtk?mpfer":

[saschaw]

And again, "in Stahl am Band f?r Nichtk?mpfer" on a wracked Baden 1870 bar, missing the Baden "Erinnerungskreuz f?r freiwillige Krankenpflege" on 2nd place and the wohle ribbon in the first.

What do you to fit best there? I was yet told a Prussian "Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen", but in front of an war award? Hmm ...

That's it for now, I don't have any more 1870 bars than these. Hope you liked them though beeing damged and wrecked ...

[dedehansen]

On 23.8.2006 at 04:14, Wild Card said:

I can not tell exactly from the picture, but if the medal in the second position is a ?Karl? (1864 - 1891) civil merit medal then it would be okay; but if it is a ?Wilhelm II? (1864 - 1891), then it is on the wrong ribbon, and that is what throws me (again, see below). Karl = no problem, Wilhelm II = problem. The different sizes of the medals = as I stated, a problem.

 

Hi Wild Card,

do you know, who the former owner from this medal bar was?

Kind regards
Andreas