Waffen SS Michael Wittman (Tank Ace)

[bigjarofwasps]

Hi Guys,

Don`t know if anyone watched the documentary on Sky the other day, about Michael Wittman, and who was created with killing him. It was very interesting and as someone who knows next to nothing about him it was very enlightening. But I have one question which I`m hoping someone will be able to shine some light on for me....

Why didn`t he command a King Tiger?

Anyone know?

http://en.wikipedia....ichael_Wittmann

Edited November 26, 2011 by hucks216

[Laurence Strong]

Was this the documentary with Norm Christie who credit the Sherbrooke Fusiliers with the kill?

[bigjarofwasps]

Was this the documentary with Norm Christie who credit the Sherbrooke Fusiliers with the kill?

Don`t know who Norm Christie is? Doesn`t ring any bells, but they did credit the kill to the Sherbrooke Fusiliers. Their argument being that the Yeomanry would have been too far away, they also only claimed 3 kills, which seemed to fall in nicely with where the other 3 wrecked tanks in the squadron where, Wittmans tank being right in front of the Canadians and within spitting distance of their position.

Anyway I`m going here. I`m just curious as to why the Germans didn`t give their best ace their best tank?

[Laurence Strong]

Don`t know who Norm Christie is? Doesn`t ring any bells, but they did credit the kill to the Sherbrooke Fusiliers. Their argument being that the Yeomanry would have been too far away, they also only claimed 3 kills, which seemed to fall in nicely with where the other 3 wrecked tanks in the squadron where, Wittmans tank being right in front of the Canadians and within spitting distance of their position.

Anyway I`m going here. I`m just curious as to why the Germans didn`t give their best ace their best tank?

Norm Chrustue was the narrator to the documentary I watched

http://www.scn.ca/programming/battlefield_mysteries

I am guess a number of factors would come in play, certainly availability of numbers would have a large part to play in it, only 150 were alloted to the SS the remainder going to the Wehrmacht, also only 379 were made in 1944 - the first year of production.

[bigjarofwasps]

Norm Chrustue was the narrator to the documentary I watched

http://www.scn.ca/programming/battlefield_mysteries

I am guess a number of factors would come in play, certainly availability of numbers would have a large part to play in it, only 150 were alloted to the SS the remainder going to the Wehrmacht, also only 379 were made in 1944 - the first year of production.

Thats very interesting thank you.

But it beggers the question "What if", he`d had a King Tiger on the 8th August, would this have changed history?

[Brian Wolfe]

From what I've read about this final battle Wittman, who was noted as being bold, was getting careless possibly due to the pressures of being in combat too long. I don't mean any slight by the term "carless" and perhaps war-weary or "battle fatigue" would be better choices. Statistically a King Tiger could have withstood a hit much better than the Panzer VI Tiger he was in command of during this encounter. If the Canadains were using the 17 pounder of a Sherman Firefly would it have necessarily made a difference had the shot been in the most vulnerable area of the King Tiger, wherever that may be? I guess that's a question for debate and I don't have the answer. If Wittman, the so-called Black Barron, was showing signs of battle fatigue (it happened to the Red Barron in WWI) then had he survived this encounter would he have only fallen prey to another gunner later on? The Canadians were well hidden and German attention seems to have been on the British tanks in another direction, this gave the Canadians an advantage. An interesting debate and one I hope others will join in to voice their views and opinions.

This encounter may have gone down as just another of many tank battles had the tables not turned in favour of the allies. So would this have changed history? No, just the outcome of this particular duel. Perhaps if he had been in a King Tiger this battle might never have made the history books at all. Also would the King Tiger have only served to make Wittman even bolder and prone to taking even more risk?

Regards

Brian

[peter monahan]

Perhaps he kept his own Tiger for reasons of sentiment or superstition - "lucky tank", "crack crew" or whatever. I watched the doc. not long ago [on YouTube, I think] and was fascinated by the elaborate and fascinating forensic reconstruction of the battle, though the [computer generated]shot of the turret blowing off when she brewed up was shown about 25 times! And I think I remember that Wittman's tank was numbered way out of sequence from the other two tanks hit in the same action - even a different number of digits Say, 04 & 09, then 152 for Wittman. Those weren't the numbers, but you get the idea, and I do recall thinking at the time that "He's had that tank for a while." Maybe one he scored a lot of kills in?

For what it's worth at this late date, there's a theory!

Peter

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

Why would a bold battlefield tactician like Wittman move to a King Tiger? Granted the armour is better but the extra weight and lower mobility of the King Tiger just wouldn't have fit Wittman's style. He had a vehicle and a crew that worked together like a well oiled machine. He and his crew knew their tank and what they could do with it. Moving to a new tank, one that would have teething problems, was probably not a good idea for them. To me it seems better to stick to something you know well and have had great success with rather than to move to some other tank just because it was a newer model.

Seasoned German tank crews eventually fell victim to the odds. Wittman and his crew lasted a long time and it is not surprising that they met the end they did. I don't think it would have mattered what tank they were fighting in.

Regards,

Gordon

[bigjarofwasps]

Gentlemen,

Why would a bold battlefield tactician like Wittman move to a King Tiger? Granted the armour is better but the extra weight and lower mobility of the King Tiger just wouldn't have fit Wittman's style. He had a vehicle and a crew that worked together like a well oiled machine. He and his crew knew their tank and what they could do with it. Moving to a new tank, one that would have teething problems, was probably not a good idea for them. To me it seems better to stick to something you know well and have had great success with rather than to move to some other tank just because it was a newer model.

Seasoned German tank crews eventually fell victim to the odds. Wittman and his crew lasted a long time and it is not surprising that they met the end they did. I don't think it would have mattered what tank they were fighting in.

Regards,

Gordon

Your talking a lot of sense there Gordon. If its not broke don`t fix it as it where.

Thinking about it, the King Tiger had loads of teething problems, perhaps if the war had dragged on a few more years and they`d ironed them out, he might have gone for the King, that being said the King would have been superseded by the E100 by then........

[bigjarofwasps]

Perhaps he kept his own Tiger for reasons of sentiment or superstition - "lucky tank", "crack crew" or whatever. I watched the doc. not long ago [on YouTube, I think] and was fascinated by the elaborate and fascinating forensic reconstruction of the battle, though the [computer generated]shot of the turret blowing off when she brewed up was shown about 25 times! And I think I remember that Wittman's tank was numbered way out of sequence from the other two tanks hit in the same action - even a different number of digits Say, 04 & 09, then 152 for Wittman. Those weren't the numbers, but you get the idea, and I do recall thinking at the time that "He's had that tank for a while." Maybe one he scored a lot of kills in?

For what it's worth at this late date, there's a theory!

Peter

Think his tank was 007? 7th off the production line? I thought the numbers on them denoted which unit they came from, but I maybe wrong.

[Gordon Craig]

bigjarofwasps,

Turret numbering systems varied throughout the war as well as from division to division and Heer from SS. The German numbering system was rather complex and started with the regimental commanders number (Heer), usually R01 and then on from there. Platoon commanders started with 0 early on and if memmory serves me right would have been 001. As soon as the allies figured out what the numbers indicated they started targeting the platoon leaders vehicle so eventually many different systems were tried to number the tanks meaningfully to the Germans but not of use to the allies. You could find single, double and triple digit turret numbers depending on the year or division.

Regards,

Gordon

[bigjarofwasps]

bigjarofwasps,

Turret numbering systems varied throughout the war as well as from division to division and Heer from SS. The German numbering system was rather complex and started with the regimental commanders number (Heer), usually R01 and then on from there. Platoon commanders started with 0 early on and if memmory serves me right would have been 001. As soon as the allies figured out what the numbers indicated they started targeting the platoon leaders vehicle so eventually many different systems were tried to number the tanks meaningfully to the Germans but not of use to the allies. You could find single, double and triple digit turret numbers depending on the year or division.

Regards,

Gordon

Cheers Gordon, thats very interesting! Gordon (aka bigjarofwasps).

[Les]

"He had a vehicle and a crew that worked together like a well oiled machine. He and his crew knew their tank and what they could do with it. Moving to a new tank, one that would have teething problems, was probably not a good idea for them. To me it seems better to stick to something you know well and have had great success with rather than to move to some other tank just because it was a newer model."

This really does make a great deal of sense and Gordon nails it right on the head. Combat reactions often rely heavily on training and reflexes or instincts that come without having to think. When your life depends on what you do, having reliable equipment is very important even if it might be slower or seemingly less efficient than other systems...in theory, or on paper. In the middle of the night when you're not fully awake, surprised in an ambush, or and have to react instantaneously or without thinking, letting the hands take over and let the brain catch up when it can is what can be the difference between life or death.

I've spoken to many German WWII vets that felt a reliable bolt action rifle that seldom jammed and two full Patronentaschen on the belt, was far better in combat than a new G43 semi-auto and a ammo box full of late war ammunition.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Les

[Laurence Strong]

It all probably boils down to the fact his unit was not slated to be replaced with the King Tiger.

[Gordon Craig]

Laurence,

You are obviously correct. A soldier fights with the tools he is given. My comments were only hypothetical supposing that Wittman had had the chance to move to another vehicle or stay with the one he had.

Regards,

Gordon

Edited February 3, 2010 by Gordon Craig