Guest Rick Research Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 Having learned new ways to get around the technical deficiencies of my computer, here is an "all in one" Poster Scan of a civil police (Militia) branch of the NKVD Commissar 3rd Rank (Major General), as worn from 1943 until the 1947 uniform change which replaced this air force blue piping with red. The tunic and visor cap buttons are the M1940 with 11 Republics, as replaced in 1946 by the 16 Republics type. The cap cockade, which unfortunately doesn't copy well from the camera shot, DOES bear the 16 Republics Soviet seal, and is of a type not known to have been authorized by "regulations," but known on the ONLY other civil police general's cap of this period known to me. It may well have been an expedient "make due" in the single year between the crest change and total revamping of the Militia's uniforms.I know of no other "ankles to scalp" M1943 police uniform "out there," so I hope you enjoy seeing this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 Rick! Technology progresses at the Research Institute! Congratulations! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuliganRS Posted December 23, 2005 Share Posted December 23, 2005 Pretty eye candy!Rusty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck In Oregon Posted December 24, 2005 Share Posted December 24, 2005 (edited) You don't see too many examples of that cockade around, either. I have this one example of the 11 republic version. Hard to find and expensive any more. Thanks for sharing that uniform. Now I have something for reference and comparison.Chuck Edited December 24, 2005 by Chuck In Oregon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted December 24, 2005 Share Posted December 24, 2005 According to A. N. Kutsenko's "Kokardy" pamphlet, this cockade (on page 16, #3 and mine as #4 without the bullion wreath he shows for command staff) were for "all levels" of functionaries of Ministry of Signals, Telegraph, and Telephones-- but he dates both as "1948" (sic!). That's typical of the random hit or miss nature of the accuracy of his "identifications."Maybe that was indeed what they were supposed to be for, and my police general just liked the look of the round "general type" cockade (*no sign of any other shape on the band). But there are a number of errors of dating and so on in the "Cockades" book, and we are certainly nowhere close to figuring out the obscure Soviet government agencies.There have been some incredible published mistakes, such as the L. Tokar' police uniforms book reversing piping and main colors for the M1947 and so on. (*though HE does show a ROUND wartime police generals cockade and NOT the multi-piece wreath and sunburst which we know existed....)I think we "out here" with REAL stuff are more likely to gradually come up with accurate information than simply accepting anything published as gospel in the general information void that now exists. I'd like to SEE some Ministry of Signals, Telegraph, and Telephones uniforms before accepting as fact a page of loose cockades, f'rinstance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck In Oregon Posted December 24, 2005 Share Posted December 24, 2005 The best authority whom I know personally is my retired MVD colonel friend Boria. I clearly remember discussing the cockade I posted with him right after I bought it. According to him it is an NKVD general's cockade. I don't ask you to accept an unknown authority, but he's mine and that's what he said and I believe it.Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted December 24, 2005 Share Posted December 24, 2005 And that is exactly the sort of personal experience I'll take over "anything in print" any time, given how often reference books are WRONG when checked against actual reality! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck In Oregon Posted December 24, 2005 Share Posted December 24, 2005 I hate to bring up Boria too often. I have heard "Why should I believe that and who is he anyway?" before. Let me tell you a little about him. He fought in Afghanistan as an undercover operator pretending to be a non-Afghan volunteer to the mujahdin. Think about that for a minute. He was unusually well qualified for that job. He was deputy police chief of a major Russian city in charge of anti-organized crime. Now think what you want about that, but it almost got him killed 3-4 times. He also fought in the first Georgian civil war after independence. I mean fought, not watched from an office.His other side is that he is one of the most likable, open, and brilliant people it has ever been my pleasure to know. We have become close friends. He is an historian of some note, with particular expertise in Russian and Georgian royalty and military history. He speaks 5-6 languages well, including Afghan well enough not to get killed.I don't suggest that he is the last word in anything that we discuss here. However, I don't mind passing along his comments every now and then.I have met few people in my life that were worthy of admiration. He is one of them.Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 Dusting off this poor old forgotten thread. A better view of the cockade "in situ"--and a newer scan of one of the 1943-47 shoulder boards with 11 Republics button: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis R Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 The best authority whom I know personally is my retired MVD colonel friend Boria. I clearly remember discussing the cockade I posted with him right after I bought it. According to him it is an NKVD general's cockade. I don't ask you to accept an unknown authority, but he's mine and that's what he said and I believe it.ChuckLet your friend from MVD Boria will tell whence at it such data? It is a cocarde of the postman of 1948. (the decision of Ministerial council of the USSR from December, 13th 1948 № 4580). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denis R Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 The new form has been entered into militias per 1947, and in militia there was no rank the general, and there was a comissаr. Here a cocarde of the comissаr of 1947. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 Thanks for good scans! It is VERY difficult for us here on the "outside" to get correct information on non-military uniforms regulations.The way uniforms for the Militia kept getting changed constantly it is a wonder anybody ever was "correctly" dressed. Though I don't think anybody in 1946 was going to tell my Commissar 3rd Rank (and how many of them could there have been then?) that he had the wrong cap badge! And from your postman's cap, now I know that BLACK breeches with "State Security" BLUE piping that I got 15 years ago is really for a mailman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takc Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 Rick, http://www.civil-uniform.narod.ru/ for further infohttp://www.civil-uniform.narod.ru/mvd/rkm-...7/1943-1947.htm about your com 3 and othersDenis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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