Calling Baden Experts

[VtwinVince]

I picked up some items from a Baden officer named Otto Pabst. His decorations include the 1870 EK2 with oakleaves, Zaehringer Loewen Knight with Swords, Baden Military Merit Medal, Prussia Red Eagle 4th Class, 1870 KDM with bars a.d. Lisaine, Strassburg and Woerth, Baden War Medal with bars 1866 and 1870-71, Baden Jubilee Medal, Prussia Centenary Medal and officer's 21 year LS clasp. If anyone could supply more biographical information on him, it would be greatly appreciated.

[Naxos]

Is any unit of his known?

[VtwinVince]

Sorry, I have nothing on his career. Edit: his name is spelled Papst.

[Naxos]

During the Franco-Prussian War 1870/71 he was not with IR110, IR113, Dragoner Rgt.21 and 22

[Ulsterman]

Papst? I find noone by that name in the EK2 list and only one officer (a telegrah 2nd Lt. with the 6th army ) named pabst.

May we see the documents please?

[Riley1965]

I picked up some items from a Baden officer named Otto Pabst. His decorations include the 1870 EK2 with oakleaves, Zaehringer Loewen Knight with Swords, Baden Military Merit Medal, Prussia Red Eagle 4th Class, 1870 KDM with bars a.d. Lisaine, Strassburg and Woerth, Baden War Medal with bars 1866 and 1870-71, Baden Jubilee Medal, Prussia Centenary Medal and officer's 21 year LS clasp. If anyone could supply more biographical information on him, it would be greatly appreciated.

Please show the medals!!! I'm very new to Baden medals and could use some tutoring.

Thanks,

Doc

[Glenn J]

Papst? I find noone by that name in the EK2 list and only one officer (a telegrah 2nd Lt. with the 6th army ) named pabst.

May we see the documents please?

The EK2 winner Karl Andreas Rudolf Ottokar Pabst did rise to become an Hauptmann in Badisches Pionier-Bataillon Nr. 14. However, if it is the same guy, none of the other awards are listed in the 1879 Army List. He died on 1 October 1881.

Regards

Glenn

[VtwinVince]

Hmm, that's weird. I have some photos of this guy, if someone would like to post them for me I can send scans. Perhaps the name on the back of the photo is incorrect, as it couldn't be the man above since my guy got the Centenarmedaille.

[Naxos]

I'm posting the portrait and medal bar for VtwinVince

From the picture he is a Feldwebel of Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 113

I checked the Regimental History of IR113 for 1870/71 and found two NCOs that had been awarded:

EKII, Zähringer Löwen Orden Kl.II mit Schwerter and the silver Karl-Friedrich Verdienstmedaille.

their names are:

Feldwebel Michael Marbeiter of 1./Kompagnie IR113

Feldwebel Franz Joseph Oechsner of 7./Kompagnie IR113

Edited March 20, 2010 by Naxos

[Naxos]

the bar:

[Naxos]

back:

[VtwinVince]

Thanks for the help so far, Hardy. We can assume that he became an officer later, due to the PKO4, no?

[Riley1965]

the bar:

Please excuse my ignorance but what are the medals? I have a lot to learn.

Doc

[VtwinVince]

Riley, from left to right: EK2 1870 with jubilee oakleaves, Baden Knight 2nd Class with Swords of Zaehringen Lion Order, Baden Silver Merit Medal on the ribbon of the Military Karl Friedrich Order, Prussia Red Eagle Order 4th Class, Prussia 1870 KDM with clasps, Baden Campaign Medal with clasps and 1897 Centenary Medal.

[CRBeery]

I looked at this one hard on Friday but I could not get past the feeling that this is an old ribbon bar that has had medals added to it. Most Baden bars I have seen have hooks for the medals and I see no evidence of any here. Also, there is red stiching around the hinge which makes me think there was a red backing that was removed before the current medals were attached and then this new backing was added. No telling when this was done and everything looks to be original. The picture shows a medal that is not on the bar in my opinion. Places 3 & 4 are both large medals that appear to be on striped ribbons. I would say position 3 is the Baden Military Merit and #4 looks like it is the same size and not the Century medal. Maybe more detail will be available when you can examine the actual photo.

[CRBeery]

I thought about this some more as orginally I was thinking the bar and the photo were two different people based on the medals but a more logical answer is that they are the same person and when the medals were added a REO was put in place of a Prussian General Honor medal. This would make the ribbons match the medals in the photos and I should have thought of this first.

[VtwinVince]

Quite right, I was skeptical about the construction of the bar from photos, but having it in hand it is all absolutely period construction. The bar has been 'upgraded' for sure, and you're right, my suspicion was also that a General Honor Decoration had been swapped out for a PKO, which is the case. What got me more confused was my impression that the Zaehringen Lion was only awarded to officers, or was this only applicable in WW1?

[CRBeery]

"in hand" - Did you fly over to pick it up?

To the best of my knowledge the OZL is an officer level award. There was the merit cross but the ribbon was different so this bar has always been an OZL. You have the old style ribbon for the OZL which are not so easy to find and what made me feel that this was a totaly legit ribbon bar. I have one around here to a later General that Rick named for me with the same type. As you know the Karl-Friedrich Verdienstmedaille on the war ribbon is a nice find for your collection and the reason that I considered buying this bar.

[Naxos]

Quite right, I was skeptical about the construction of the bar from photos, but having it in hand it is all absolutely period construction. The bar has been 'upgraded' for sure, and you're right, my suspicion was also that a General Honor Decoration had been swapped out for a PKO, which is the case. What got me more confused was my impression that the Zaehringen Lion was only awarded to officers, or was this only applicable in WW1?

After the 1870/71 war, 3 Feldwebel of IR113 and 3 Feldwebel of IR112 were awarded the Zähringer Lion. (these are the only two Regiments your man could have belonged to).

Of the three men in IR113 only two have also been awarded the silver Merit Medal. That leaves two in that Regiment. I tend to believe that he is more likely from 113 that 112.

I will list the names of the possible Feldwebel from 112 later.

This is a beautiful and stunning bar!

Edited March 20, 2010 by Naxos

[Naxos]

Here is the award publication of the Zähringer Löwen Orden to the Feldwebel Marbeiter and Oechsner of the 5th (113) Baden Infantry Reriment. The order was awarded on April 3, 1871

[Naxos]

Edited March 20, 2010 by Naxos

[VtwinVince]

Hardy, pardon my ignorance, but why, if this order is for officers, was it given to NCO's, or was this just an exception for 1870? To my mind, this spange must have belonged to a Hauptmann\Major grade officer.

[Naxos]

Hardy, pardon my ignorance, but why, if this order is for officers, was it given to NCO's, or was this just an exception for 1870? To my mind, this spange must have belonged to a Hauptmann\Major grade officer.

The Ritterkreuz zum Zähringer Löwen Orden (second class with swords) was awarded to senior Baden NCOs for valor on the battlefield during the Franco-Prussian War of 1870/71.

The medal bar you are showing belonged to a senior NCO (I can not explain the Prussian order in it)

Edited March 20, 2010 by Naxos

[Naxos]

Feldwebel Michael Marbeiter and Feldwebel Franz Joseph Oechsner were awarded:

Prussian Iron Cross second class on January 20, 1871

Silver Baden Merit Medal (Karl-Friedrich Militärverdienst-Medaille) on February 15, 1871

Ritterkreuz des Zähringer Löwen Orden second class with swords on April 3, 1871

Edited March 20, 2010 by Naxos

[Naxos]

Franz Joseph Oechsner was no longer alive in 1884

Michael Marbeiter born on September 29, 1833 living in Freiburg i.B. is listed in the 1884 as a Kanzleidiener in Freiburg.