WW1.. who started it?

[Chris Boonzaier]

IMHO... It was Austrias fault and Germany egged her on.

Picture the scene... Franz Joseph was like a country yokel who grew up on the farm... and then met up with Willy, who was head of a biker gang....

F.J. and Willy land up in a Hells Angels bar and FJ sees a topless Girl next to a small Hells Angel.

F.J. thinks to himself, its just a small guy... I can take him.. and says to Willy "Hey, I never seen boobies before, I would like to cop a feel".

Willöy is a whole lot smarter... he sees there are 15 other Hells angels in the room... but he knows he has 15 of his own bikers in the car park. Instead of telling F.J. "Boy! You grab them titties... and blood will flow".... he says "Yeah! Grab em! Nuzzle em! anything happens... we got you covered!"....

So, due to F.J. s stupidity, and Willy's desire to be the big man... WW1 starts....

..and I know you all want to proove me wrong!

[Kenneth Whitcomb]

[An interesting read: "Paris 1919"( Six months that changed the world ) by Margaret Macmillan. Discusses the peace conference and it's successes and failures. New insights into the personalities of the major leaders.

[IrishGunner]

"Boy! You grab them titties... ""

Hell, I'm too distracted to think logically or argumentatively. :speechless:

Edited September 30, 2010 by IrishGunner

[censlenov]

IMHO... It was Austrias fault and Germany egged her on.

..and I know you all want to proove me wrong!

Boonzaier that is the most imaginative comparison i have heard in a long time. I never knew you spent some time in one of our fine Medicine Hat drinking establishments. Could've summed the whole comparison up by saying its like Medicine Hat on a Saturday night!

Cheers

Chris

[Chris Boonzaier]

Could've summed the whole comparison up by saying its like Medicine Hat on a Saturday night!

Cheers

Chris

Well... "Canada started it" is your entry into the discussion...???

I think you going to loose!

[IrishGunner]

Equating the Serbs to the #1 notorious biker gang - the Hell's Angels - gives Serbia too much credit and forgives their role in this little drama. The Serbs were hardly a serious rival gang - but rather some pretenders who tried to take a bit of turf from the Hell's Angels - the alliance between Austria and Germany.

So, if we want to use your little analogy; it is more like this:

FJ joins his cousins biker gang - the Hell's Angels with Willy as the gang leader. FJ has his turf to manage within the Hells Angels empire, but has some problems with a minor gang - let's call them the Warlocks - trying to cut their piece of 'hood from FJ's turf. And in the meantime, kills one of FJ's relatives just out of spite. So, FJ's war lords argue that FJ has to go into the bar for looking for revenge, but FJ wants to know who has his back. Willy says look, this is a local thing - deal with it FJ, but if any one tries to take advantage of your situation, I got your back.

On the sidelines are the Pagans - also known as Russia - another rival gang to the Angels, but not as powerful. They see a chance to take advantage of the situation and get some turf too; so they egg on the Warlocks. The Hells Angels tell the Pagans that this is a local fight - stay out of it - and if you don't - then we will be forced to defend our colors as a point of gang honor. The Pagans mobilize their choppers and hawgs and head for the borders. Willy has no choice but to do likewise out of honor.

So, in this little bar drama, we see that the Serbs started the whole thing by killing the Archduke, egged on by the Russians.

[censlenov]

Well... "Canada started it" is your entry into the discussion...???

I think you going to loose!

IMHO ww1 was in the works for years before hand with Imperialistic build up of many of the nations involved as combatants in the war. The system of alliances created as a result of the Imperial expansion was truely the cause of ww1 as without the alliances the conflict may well have remained isolated to the Baltic region. I don't really think we can blame one nation for starting the war when everyone had their hand in the escalation of the hostilites.

As for Medicine Hat if you ever venture out this way Chris pop in and i'll show you what i mean.

Cheers

Chris

[Chris Boonzaier]

As for Medicine Hat if you ever venture out this way Chris pop in and i'll show you what i mean.

Cheers

Chris

Will do :cheers:

[Eric Stahlhut]

let's not forget about willy's tendency towards megalomania...

[Hauptmann]

let's not forget about willy's tendency towards megalomania...

A quotation by Bertrand Russell gives his interpretation of

megolamania: "The megalomaniac differs from the narcissist by the fact

that he wishes to be powerful rather than charming, and seeks to be

feared rather than loved. To this type belong many lunatics and most

of the great men of history."

I truly feel much of what people think they know about Wilhelm II comes out of the allied propaganda and such during the war. I've read a number of books on him and have a different view of the man. His grandfather pretty much let Bismarck run things, his father, albeit having his reign cut tragically short due to his throat cancer was, along with his wife much more of a liberal and reformer and no telling what he might have accomplished... perhaps something along the lines of Victoria and Albert. The Willy comes into the picture and I feel due to his young age at that time probably felt he knew better than that "old fogie" Bismarck, just as most of us never realize just how smart our parents truly were till we have ourselves reached their age and level of life experience. Yes Willy loved uniforms and pageantry... so do I and I suspect many of us in the hobby. Does that make us megalomaniacs? Of course not. Yes, he probably tried to overcompensate for his withered arm. Who could blame him... he was cast into the spotlight as leader of the German Empire and people don't like to think of their rulers as having such flaws.

He loved archaeology and went on several expeditions. He was not dummy. His major problem during the war I think was that he basically let his military leaders take over. Hindenburg and Ludendorf basically became virtual dictators of Germany at the end. But whereas Hindenburg was idolized the Kaiser was blamed by the majority of his people for what happened.

I think in his own way Wilhelm truly tried to be the best ruler he could, and had his father died years later and had given him more training and experience there's no telling how much he could have accomplished and how things would have turned out.

But as far as megalomania... Hitler and Stalin definitely fit that description... as does Goering. In fact megalomania is not regarded as a mental illness in and of itself but a contributing factor in other mental illness. People again talk about Wilhelm's love of uniforms and military pageantry... well Tsar Nicholas, King George... most all royalty of the time wore many uniforms including those of their allied nations as was the custom of the time... they had tons of awards given to them, attended parades and marches, wargames, etc. Yes, Nicholas wanted a big navy... George had the biggest. But who says that King George was a megalomaniac? I've never heard anyone say that... just Willy.

Yes there was much more Wilhelm probably could have done to prevent the hammer from falling... and that he could have done better as Kaiser but what leader no matter how great could not have the same said about them. No one is perfect. I think given his circumstances he did the best he could and the best he was equipped and do at the time. Before judging him I think more people should study his entire life and get a feel for what he was like as a man and then try to form an opinion of him. But truly none of us is in a position to judge when you come right down to it. We all have our problems and deal with life the best we can. None of us are perfect.

Wilhelm was not a tyrant, nor a butcher or an eater of babies. He was not evil incarnate. Hitler and Stalin yes but Wilhelm... I truly think he has been terribly misjudged by history. But again, the victors write the histories don't they?

Dan

[Naxos]

[An interesting read: "Paris 1919"( Six months that changed the world ) by Margaret Macmillan. Discusses the peace conference and it's successes and failures. New insights into the personalities of the major leaders.

Agree! It is an excellent read on the subject.

[Mike Dwyer]

Wilhelm was not a tyrant, nor a butcher or an eater of babies. He was not evil incarnate. Hitler and Stalin yes but Wilhelm... I truly think he has been terribly misjudged by history. But again, the victors write the histories don't they?

Dan

Dan,

I'm with you. As I said elsewhere, I was raised with the blood thirsty, baby eating, war loving, tryant image of Wilhelm II. Through my studies of history I've found out that was just propaganda. Yes, Willy loved uniforms, pomp, parades, and the military (as do I), but he didn't love war. He was personally very horrified at the outbreak of WW1 and had hoped it could be avoided. But, just like Kaiser Franz Josef, he was honor bound to stand by his treaties.

As I also mentioned in another thread, in some of the readings I was shocked at the high level of anti-German feelings and the official actions taken to thwart Germany from any chance of becoming a world power. It was fine and dandy for Britain, France, Russia, and yes, even the good old USA, to have navies, colonies and to subjugate entire populations, but it was totally not to be allowed for Germany to become a member of that exclusive club.

My opinion of Kaiser Wilhelm II has changed dramatically. I don't say that he wasn't without faults, he had many, but he was very much the victim of allied propaganda. :Cat-Scratch:

[Chris Boonzaier]

It was fine and dandy for Britain, France, Russia, and yes, even the good old USA, to have navies, colonies and to subjugate entire populations, but it was totally not to be allowed for Germany to become a member of that exclusive club.

Hi,

I am on the fly so I dont have a lot of time, but from the other thread...

"That is not strictly true.

German simply got into the colony game too late... by the time she was interested, all the good real estate was gone... and germany got the leftovers....

Look at her african colonies... no prime real estate there at all.

Why?

Bismark did NOT want them... in fact, he hoped france would... that France would concentrate her energies on getting Colonies and leave Germany to do its thing in Europe.

So the Germans only became interested in Colonies around 1880... and there was little left...

Its as if I got the idea today... "Manhaten island sounds good... i think I will go build a house on the beach there...." and then complain noone wants to give me any space...

If the germans missed the colonial boat they can thank Bismark. Anyway, they had it all figured out at the Berlin Conference mid 1880s... rules were set and agreed on, germany was not excluded on any level.

Best

Chris

[Mike Dwyer]

.....That is not strictly true.

German simply got into the colony game too late... by the time she was interested, all the good real estate was gone... and germany got the leftovers....

I agree, they got in the game very, very late, and what they got wasn't much, but I stand by my statement that the countries I named did everything they could to frustrate any efforts by Germany to become a world power.....no, I'll change the wording and say they did everything they could to make sure Germany never became their equal. So I'll go along with you in part, and disagree with you in part. :unsure:

[Hauptmann]

Mike, I'm with you all the way on this. Germany got the colonies she got... seemed okay with it. Willy built a navy (he considered it his child and felt totally betrayed by that child at the end of the war when they mutinied) as any colonial power needed to maintain and defend same. The U.S. did the same thing under TR with the Great White Fleet. I'm absolutely convinced that Britain would have been happiest had no one else on the planet had so much as a rowboat... they wanted to rule the waves and that was that. But especially when it came to Germany they did everything they could to best them and "keep them in their place".

And France... all their military has ever done is run around like peacocks strutting their stuff and boasting that theirs is THE BEST military in the world. That certainly showed during the Franco Prussian War and WW1 and WW2, eh? But Germany... consider a small nation comparatively, with the population that it had and yet in both World Wars look at what they accomplished in terms of conquest of land mass and holding out for as many years as they did each time. To this day much of their strategy, tactics and even weaponry (or weapons based on the original German designs) are still used in some of the military forces of the world. Shoot... they finally even decided to copy the Stahlhelm albeit in kevlar because the design is simply superior.

But still it's always "the evil Germans" this and "the evil Germans" that. In movies, novels, TV shows... you name it. You can just hear the evil threatening bad guy music coming up in the soundtrack. Germans are BAAAAAAAAD! It's just like people always talk about the nazi army. You go to a movie and it's the nazi's. Sorry but not all Germans were members of the NSDAP and not all Germans supported them. No more than every single solitary Russian or citizen of the USSR was a member of the communist party. And in many cases one simply HAD to belong in order to keep or progress in a given career field. So you joined, paid lip service and got on with your life. Under similar circumstances I'm sure many of us would have done the same thing. It's so easy to be outside the fishbowl and pass judgements on people in such a system. Oh, why didn't they rise up? Why didn't they refuse? Why didn't they stand up to the nazi's? Well perhaps because the nazi's controlled not only the army, AF, navy, etc., but also the dreaded and feared (for good reason) SS and Gestapo. Such resistance was crushed without mercy... and the people knew it. Plus what did Hitler do when he took over... he instituted... big drumroll here... GUN CONTROL! So like lets all be brave and go up against tanks with our bare hands! YEAH... let's go for it! So how many of us are brave enough to do that? Be honest. If pushed to the max yes, I bet many of us would be willing to do whatever it took.

And to get back to the French, it has been shown over and over and over again that if the French army had put up any resistance whatsoever in the very beginning in the Rhineland then Hitler had given orders for his forces to pull back. So if so much as one French army unit... a bicycle squad for crying out loud... had stood their ground and said you're not coming in... it would have put a stop to things, at least for a time. And had the allies had any backbone at all and stood their ground instead of their constant appeasement it would have stopped Hitler in his tracks. They chose instead to stand by and see what would happen. Perhaps Hitler would eat his fill and push back from the table. Yeah, right!

Sorry to move into a rant but again it comes from a lifetime of someone with a German family hearing over and over again about how bad and evil the Germans were and how they were at fault for everything and that all Germans in WW2 were nazi's, etc. Well, I'm very proud of my German heritage and I feel there is alot to be proud of. Yes, I feel extreme guilt over what the Germans did re: the holocaust, attrocities (they had lots of company in that area along with allied troops... no ones hands are clean) and I feel that Germany and Germans have tried with all their might to come back from that and be good citizens in the family of nations and to make up for what was done. Unlike the Japanese they are taught what happened and they want to make sure it never happens again. I myself have used my TR collection (not near what it once was) to teach others and show that yes, it happened... and it should never be allowed to happen again

Germany is not evil... Germans are not evil. Anyone given a chance and put into the right circumstances is capable of doing monstrous things, whether it be for greed, survival, self preservation, rage over wrongs committed against themselves or their loved ones... you name it. Look at the Soviets... they (and rightfully so) fought back with little or no mercy to the German invaders. But they were pushed to it... pushed into a corner... and came out fighting and doing whatever it took to defeat the invader.

Well, I'm going to climb down off my soapbox and go get some dinner.

And I want to say, I hope I've not offended anyone here as it was not my intention to do so. Again this just comes out of a lifetime of 48 years of pent up frustration. Hoping everyone understands. And yes, I'm sure a good bit of this probably should be in the other thread... and I'll be happy to copy it over to there if any of you would like me to. I didn't intend to go on like this but the words just flowed and any of you who know me realize that I tend to write Gone With The Wind quite often.

Dan