1890 damast cadet dagger with ivory grip

[Flyingdutchman]

Gentlemen,

here comes my 1890 imperial cadet dagger.

It?s a nice one made by Alcoso. All parts having matching numbers. The grip is genuine ivory, the hand ciseled scabbard is made from brass. It?s one of the best 1890?s I have ever seen.

I tried to translate the blade inscription:

Who don?t have joy on a shiny sword/ The flight of the falcon/The noble horse/The beautiful wife/Has no truly heart inside.

We made a set of better pics for a book.

Any thoughts greatly appreciated !

Thanks in advance !

Best;

Flyingdutchman

[Flyingdutchman]

back

[Flyingdutchman]

maker

[Flyingdutchman]

presentation

Thanks for looking !

[Bob Hunter]

Very fine piece with an interesting portapee. I think the navy daggers have a classic design.

[Bob Rodgers]

Very nice and rare dagger.

These damascus daggers are getting harder to find and this one is in great condition.

thanks for posting it.

[David Gregory]

The dagger is very attractive and bears an excellent inscription. In today's politically correct world, it certainly reflects a view of the world from an age gone by.

[Mark M]

The dagger is very beautiful. I do have a question about it that I am sure one of the TR specialist might be able to answer better than I could. Isn't the Alcoso logo used on your blade a post 1940 logo? I thought that the imperial logo was simply the scales.

Mark

[Flyingdutchman]

Hi Mark,

please see an ACS Logo on an imperial long bajonett:

http://www.wwiidaggers.com/23282.htm

I will add more infos when time.

Thanks for looking !

Best;

Flyingdutchman

[Tony J]

Hello Flyingdutchman,

I have some doubts about the blade for the following reasons.

The correct name of the company during the Imperial era was Alexander Coppel. The scales without initials is an earlier trademark. I have an Imperial era Wurtemburg Model 1889 degen with this early TM. The trademark shown on the bayonet is a bit later, possibly a late Imperial era but definately Weimar thru early Third Reich era.

The most important 'red flag' for me is that the Alcoso trade name was instituted during the Third Reich era after the company was appropriated from it's Jewish owners and subsiquently 'aryanized'. To my knowledge the company was never refered to as Alcoso before the mid Third Reich era.

The arched script Alcoso logo shown on your blade was initially used c.1939-1940. Carter's book will also verify this. Unfortunately many reproduction etched bayonet blades and assembled bayonets as well as other dagger blades had this spurios TM applied to them by folks like Reddick and others in the past 25 years or so.

Sorry to put such a grim spin on an otherwise fine looking dagger.

Tony

[Mark M]

Flyingdutchman

The company Alexander Coppel used several trade marks their their history of production. The earliest being the simple scales followed by the scales/intials (shown in your reference) and so on. I do think Tony's comments about the time frame are correct. Another thing about this blade that looks wrong is the weak center spine. It looks too rounded. Again, not a true indicator of a bad blade but something to be leary of. While many naval daggers were period updated to TR standards (correct pommels and cross guards) I am not sure if there were a lot that only had the blade upgraded.

It is still a good looking dagger.

Mark

[Flyingdutchman]

Gentlemen,

there is absolute no problem about it ! It?s an interesting question.

I asked a well known collector from the US for help. He never saw this makers mark on imperial pieces. He has his doubts, but wouldn?t say at this point, that this logo wasn?t used in that time.

For more infos I phoned with the owner of Alcoso today, Mr. Scharnweber. He is a very nice and helpfull guy. Alcoso is existing since 1827 ! Wow, I never knew that fact. I sent him photos of this dagger and the logo. He will check his files over the weekend to find additional information. Unfortunately some of the files were destroyed through heavy bombings in ww2.

BTW: AL CO SO stands for ALexander COppel SOlingen. I heard that the name changed during TR era to Alcosa, but I?m not sure.

I bought this dagger in the early 90?s from a german collector, Mr.Stefanski. I had no experience in that time, but I fell in love with this art nouveau inscription.

Until yesterday I never checked the makers mark, because I?m not interested in TR stuff.

I?m always happy to learn. Of course it would be a sad thing if this piece wouldn?t be genuine. If so, I will toss this dagger out of the collection in an eye twinkle. C?est la vie ...

I will keep you informed, gentlemen.

Thanks a lot !

Best;

Flyingdutchman

Edited January 12, 2006 by Flyingdutchman

[Mark M]

Flyingdutchman

There was a reprint done of the A. Coppel catalog done a few years back that also contained the company history. It showed the progression of their trademarks used through the years and when they were used. It has been a few years since I have seen one but they were very inexpensive. You might want to try and find one of those.

I sure wouldn't throw away the dagger. It is a great looking piece even if the blade is a replacement! Use it as a filler in your collection until a better one comes along.

Mark

[Flyingdutchman]

I sure wouldn't throw away the dagger. It is a great looking piece even if the blade is a replacement! Use it as a filler in your collection until a better one comes along.

Mark

Mark,

let?s see. I?m curious what the owner of Alcoso will find out. Then we will decide.

If it is a put together item, I have no interest. If it is a good one, I will keep it in my collection.

However, thanks for your thoughts.

Best;

Flyingdutchman

[Bob Rodgers]

he is right.

I missed the mark when i posted about this dagger.

The mark on the blade was NOT used until 1940 era.

Alcoso used 35 markings in their production history which ended officially in 1956.

[Tony J]

Flyingdutchman

While many naval daggers were period updated to TR standards (correct pommels and cross guards) I am not sure if there were a lot that only had the blade upgraded.

Mark

Mark, Flyingdutchman,

Imperial and Weimar era daggers could and have been upgraded to TR standards with a pommel change. A crossguard change wasn't necessary. Also, just changing the blade wouldn't constitute conforming to TR regs.

The Alcoso trademark shown was used some time after the c.1938 requirement for the Reichsadler pommel on naval daggers.

The more I look at the blade pictures the more I wonder if it is an artificial damascus pattern etched on a carbon steel blade. I would be very interested in seeing clear pictures of the tang and any marks if they are present.

This inscription was first shown in Jim Atwoods book first published in the 1960s. The quote would be more appropriate to a land based soldier versus a seafaring man. Horses and falcons are not the venue of sailors. Just a thought.

Tony

[GeorgeCL]

Hi,

I had the same feeling about the blade..

Heres a pic of a piece from the 60's postwar with artifical damast..rosebud..

different maker mark.

George

[Flyingdutchman]

Gentlemen,

thanks for your input.

Though waiting for the answer from the Alcoso company, I am becoming more and more sure that this blade is simply a reproduction.

It?s a sad story. I bought this dagger in the early 90?s from a well known collector in Germany. I had absolutely no knowledge on the subject.

I never checked the markings. For me it was pretty obvious that this dagger was a genuine item. Everything was there. The etched damascus blade, wonderful presentation, nice fittings and - markings. Never had the faintest idea that this item could be a fake, because the seller was well known. All other daggers I own were examined by highly experienced collectors - except this one. Bad luck. However my fault. I had 15yrs to check this one, I never did until now.

I tossed this spare part Frankenstein out of the collection now. Sorry for bothering you with this tourist trinket.

Thanks again for your help.

Best regards;

Flyingdutchman

Edited January 19, 2006 by Flyingdutchman

[Flyingdutchman]

Gentlemen,

here is the answer from Alcoso.

sorry f?r die etwas l?ngere Wartezeit, aber wir mu?ten erst mal suchen.

Als Anlage ein Bild mit den verschieden Variationen des Firmenzeichens und einer zeitlichen Aufstellung.

Bis Bild 18 wurden die Zeichen bis 1936 genutzt.

Bild 21 bis 24 1936 bis 1944.

Vieleicht hilft Ihnen das irgendwie weiter.

MfG

U. Scharnweber

ALCOSO

He said that the logos til #18 were used until 1936 and #21-24 from 1936 until 1944. I?m confused now.

Best;

Flyingdutchman

[mustang]

haven`t the two stefanski brothers written a reference work on navy daggers,not seen it myself,i believe one is expert on luftwaffe edged weapons while his brother is expert on navy dirks.

looking at blade still cautious

book at www.naval-military-press.com

title OFFICER SWORDS OF THE GERMAN NAVY 1806-1945

review Finally, a thorough work on the swords worn by German naval officers and non-commissioned officers from 1806-1945.The authors, both experienced collectors, have extensively researched in archives and numerous public and private collections.Thus they can, among other things correct statements about the legendary "Furstenberg Swords", add new informtion on the various types, also provide a list of the wearers of honorary swords from the days of the Imperial Navy, the Reichs- and Kriegsmarine.This impressive book includes more than 250 images showing the weapons and their wearers.

ok its swords,not dirks but surely they must have knowledge of such

still this blade has head scratchy probs with me,damast pattern . dont wanna go either way yet,still sitting on fence ,but the fittings and grip are great,makers mark ????,some have said in past are period...some not.

i would have preffered to see on a maidenhair pattern.

inscription i have seen on a few different types of blades of different styles/groups.......im sure its a quote of somebody like napoleon and was used different sectors of service.some ok some not.

still after saying all this.????????????????

sorry to confuse matters more

Edited December 5, 2006 by mustang