Chris Boonzaier Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 OK, this is a loaded question... a bit of info I got that blew me away... A Bavarian who got the silver bravery medal in mid 1916, was in the line until the end of the war.... What do you think would be the minimum he would have had on his chest by early 1918? All the best Chris
Wild Card Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Hi Chris Boonzaier, I get your point, but in reality that would mainly depend upon circumstances and events around him post 1916. To your question, the minimum? A silver bravery medal... and an EK2. Best wishes, Wild Card
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 19, 2011 Author Posted January 19, 2011 Hi, after 1916 he on the Somme from Mid Nov 1916 to Mid Jan 1917 then in Flanders from mid Jan to the beginning of April 1917. Before 1916 he was involved in positional warefare on the Somme for the whole of 1915 then in the Artois for the first half of 1916. So he was "around"......
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 19, 2011 Author Posted January 19, 2011 I think it may be better phrased to say "what would you EXPECT him to have as a minimum"
Claudio Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 He could probably have received a BMWK and if he was already in service before WWI also a Long Service medal. Claudio
Schießplatzmeister Posted January 19, 2011 Posted January 19, 2011 Hello Chris: The "usual" for a silver MVM/TKM recipient was: Silver MVM/TKM; MVK III w/ Swords; and an EKII. A wound badge either black or silver and a nine (9) year service medal were not uncommon in addition to the above. However, since this is a "trick" question. It was of course possible to only receive the silver MVM/TKM and nothing else. Or, as stated the MVM/TKM + EKII only. Or, the MVM/TKM + MVK III w/ Swords only. Please show us what you have. "SPM"
Chris Boonzaier Posted January 19, 2011 Author Posted January 19, 2011 Hi, Wild Card nailed it.... "My guy" here..... http://www.kaiserscross.com/40047/46301.html entered service in 1914... got the Silver at Verdun in 1916.... and nothing more until Feb of 1918 when he got the EK2. Obviously possible... but i think unusual... would have thought with the silver you would have automatically have a MVK III tossed in for X-Mas. Best Chris
Chris Boonzaier Posted May 22, 2011 Author Posted May 22, 2011 Here is his rough Bio... Max Stark was born on the 30th of December in Eichstadt. At the outbreak of the war was working as a laborer in München. On the 1st of October 1914 he joined the 1. Pionier Ersatz Bataillon for his training, then on the 18 January 1915 he transferred to the 3. Feld Pionier Komp in the field. From the 18.1.1915 to the 6.10.1915 he was engaged in positional warfare on the Somme, then from the 7.10.-13.10.1915 the “Herbstschlacht bei La Basse und Arras”. From the 14.10.1915 till 30.4.1916 the Komp. Took part in positional warfare in Artois including fighting at Neuville – St Vaast on the 25-28.1.1916 and 8.-10.2.1916 In May the unit moved to Verdun and Stark was involved in the fighting for the Wabengräben in the Thiaumont Wald and at Thiaumont Ferme on the 22.5.-27.5.1916. On the 26.5.16 he braved artillery fire to dig men out of a collapsed bunker. He was wounded in the action with shrapnel in the left arm. On the 27th he was evacuated and went through the following hospitals: 28.05.1916-15.07.16 Reserve Lazarette Saarlouis 15.07.1916-31.07.1916 Res Laz München 31.07.16-3.10.16 Laz. Perlach On the 3.10.16 he joined the Genesenden (recovery) Komp 1. Pionier.Ersatz.Bataillon. On the 23.10.16 he was awarded the Bavarian Silver bravery Medal. (Silb. Tapferkeits Medaille ) After joining the 4. Ersatz Komp on the 12.11.1916 he transferred to the bay. Mineur Komp on the 20.11.1916 then later to the bay. Pion. Komp. Involed in the last days of the battle on the Somme , 22.11.-26.11.16 then positional warfare on the Somme from 27.11.16-13.1.17. Changing to Flanders Stark took part in positional warfare in the Wytschaete-Bogen until getting sick in early April. On the 5.4.1917 he was sent to hospital, then again, on the 6.5.17 to the Genesenden Komp 1. Pionier Ersatz bataillon. On the 2.6.17 he transfered to the 3. Ersatz Komp. 1. bay.Pion.Ers.Batl, while here, on the 28.2.18 he was awarded the Iron Cross 2nd Class, on the 16.7.18 the Verwundeten Abzeichen (Schwarz). Transferring on the 1.10.18 to the 1. Ersatz Komp. 1. bay. Pion.Ers.Batl. he was released from service on the 21.12.1918.
Dave Danner Posted May 22, 2011 Posted May 22, 2011 Rank is big factor, too. A large percentage of Silver Bravery Medal recipients were NCOs. Naturally, they would be more likely to have a DA. But they were also more likely to have an MVK, since the MVK wasn't just for acts of bravery but also military merit, and successful combat leadership was a big part of military merit. But a private could have a single spectacular act of bravery and get the Bravery Medal, and then otherwise fade back into obscurity as just another grunt. He's already got a medal more prestigious than the MVK anyway. What surprises me more than the lack of an MVK is that Pion. Stark served throughout almost the entire war and apparently never got promoted.
Chris Boonzaier Posted May 23, 2011 Author Posted May 23, 2011 What surprises me more than the lack of an MVK is that Pion. Stark served throughout almost the entire war and apparently never got promoted. Indeed... that is an achievement all on its own... Once again you would think that the medal would have given him a leg up. He seems to have spet the last half of 1917 and all of 1918 back in bavaria at the Ersatz Battalion... I am at a loss for what job they had for a buck private there... you would think a little bit of Rank would have been handy...
Dave Danner Posted May 23, 2011 Posted May 23, 2011 Another strange one: Lt. Herbert Koppenhagen received the Golden Bravery Medal on 9 December 1915, and the Iron Cross 2nd Class two weeks later, on 20 December. The actual acts for which he received the medals must have been earlier, because he is listed as receiving them as a Fähnrich in 23. bay. IR, but he was promoted to Leutnant on 25 October 1915 (his Patent was later, 22 March 1916). He gets the Iron Cross 1st Class on 28 March 1917 and the Black Wound Badge on 25 June 1918. So unlike your guy he does get another higher award in the EK1, but: (1) he's an officer, but no MVK (common for officer candidates though maybe the Golden Bravery Medal trumped that) and no MVO, despite being an infantry platoon leader at Verdun. (2) did I mention he was from Sachsen-Meiningen, born in Unterneubrunn and residing in Schleusingen, Kreis Hildburgshausen? No SMM or SMK either.
Chris Boonzaier Posted May 25, 2011 Author Posted May 25, 2011 Here is another one on a smaller scale... Josef Schelshorn, cant read from where (bottom line)
Chris Boonzaier Posted May 25, 2011 Author Posted May 25, 2011 A simple EK2 to him.... Here is something I am wondering.... If the commander of a Bavarian Division could award the EK2.... and the MVK3rd Class.... How did he diecide which one to award? Was there some kind of fixed rule?
Dave Danner Posted May 25, 2011 Posted May 25, 2011 (edited) Sergeant Josef Schelshorn, from Thanning bei Wolfratshausen, to the north of Bad Tölz. Served mainly with the 1. Pion.-Ers.-Btl. and Pion.-Btl. 22 Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse - no date given Bay. MVK 3. Kl. mit der Krone und Schwertern - 25.4.18 Verwundetenabzeichen in Schwarz - 13.5.18 He was promoted to Sergeant on 20 March 1918, so maybe the photo dates from between then and the April 25 award of the BMV5cXKr. Edited May 25, 2011 by Dave Danner
Chris Boonzaier Posted May 25, 2011 Author Posted May 25, 2011 Sergeant Josef Schelshorn, from Thanning bei Wolfratshausen, to the north of Bad Tölz. Served mainly with the 1. Pion.-Ers.-Btl. and Pion.-Btl. 22 Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse - no date given Bay. MVK 3. Kl. mit der Krone und Schwertern - 25.4.18 Verwundetenabzeichen in Schwarz - 13.5.18 He was promoted to Sergeant on 20 March 1918, so maybe the photo dates from between then and the April 25 award of the BMV5cXKr. Thanks Dave :-) That is indeed just what the doctor ordered. Best Chris
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