OvBacon Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 So I'm wondering how you know which order a Prussian order is on a ribbon bar if they all look like a Prussian Iron Cross. How do you know in the bar below if its a Prussian Military Decoration or an EK?
saschaw Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 I think you just don't know. I don't see anything that excludes one of this two possibilities. The bar dates WW1 era.
OvBacon Posted February 25, 2011 Author Posted February 25, 2011 So... with most bars that can not be linked to a person its just a guess, or what makes the most sense with the other orders on it? (I'm not that interested in exactly knowing it for the bar I linked, just in general trying to understand how it works) I think you just don't know. I don't see anything that excludes one of this two possibilities. The bar dates WW1 era.
Claudius Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 So... with most bars that can not be linked to a person its just a guess, or what makes the most sense with the other orders on it? (I'm not that interested in exactly knowing it for the bar I linked, just in general trying to understand how it works) That's right. If I had to weigh in one direction or the other I would say the Prussian Military Decoration. This gent was in the service in 1897 to get the Centennial, went overseas to China and DSWA and also picked up a Red Eagle order. That is a lot of PRE-wwi service. When WWI did break out this gent was in his middle 30's, likely an NCO or a low ranking officer. Although no long service decoration. Others can opine on what the lack of a LS award could mean in this instance. Nice ribbon bar!
Leutwein Posted February 25, 2011 Posted February 25, 2011 Why overseas??? The colonial-medals (for china and africa) could also be the Non-Combatant-Versions... Best wishes Karsten
Claudius Posted February 26, 2011 Posted February 26, 2011 Why overseas??? The colonial-medals (for china and africa) could also be the Non-Combatant-Versions... Best wishes Karsten I don't fully understand your question and statement. Please explain.
Ulsterman Posted February 26, 2011 Posted February 26, 2011 In terms of probabilities the first is probably an EK2. Isn't the 2nd a Hamburg Hansakreuz-making this in all liklihood a navy officer/ Beamters' bar?
saschaw Posted February 26, 2011 Posted February 26, 2011 2nd ribbon is Prussian Red Eagle order (if the wearer was officer rank) or Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen (if he wasn't). Hamburg ribbon is different. China and South West Africa medals could be in steel for stay-at-homes, so he wasn't necessary in oversea service. If he wasn't, it cannot be a Militär-Ehrenzeichen. If he was "over there", it may be one. There is neither a way to tell, unless you know whose bar it is.
Leutwein Posted February 26, 2011 Posted February 26, 2011 Hello Claudius, as Sascha said, it could also be the China- and Soutwestafrica medal in steel for stay-at-homes. So we can not say for sure that the owner was in China or africa (as a colonial-fighter) Best wishes Karsten
Claudius Posted February 26, 2011 Posted February 26, 2011 China and South West Africa medals could be in steel for stay-at-homes, so he wasn't necessary in oversea service. I thought the steel were for non-combatants, like medical. I know the Imperial Russians used a system that indicated the level of service at the time of the conflict (Silver, Dark Bronze and Light Bronze), but I didn't know the China or DSWA medals were like that. Can someone explain the official award criteria used for the gilt and silver medals?
Ulsterman Posted February 27, 2011 Posted February 27, 2011 Wasn't the REO and/or the AEZ given for best gunnery every year? Markmans' badges for enlisted and AEZ and REOs for commanders of the Kaiserprize winners unit. My understanding was that the Crown order was almost always given to officers BEFORE the REO, except in very rare, "special" circumstances and that the AEZ was given to enlisted/WOs for similar actions-e.g. Doenitz's leadership of a navy landing party in Albania as a Cadet in early 1914. The Colonial and China medal would strongly hint at navy.
saschaw Posted February 27, 2011 Posted February 27, 2011 My understanding was that the Crown order was almost always given to officers BEFORE the REO, except in very rare, "special" circumstances The KO4 was standard award to Leutnant and Oberleutnants while the RAO4 usually went to Hauptleute and Majore. But: Most peace time officers did not receive the KO4 and started with RAO4 as their first order! Followed by KO3, but that is another story. I thought the steel were for non-combatants, like medical. That's right for SWA, which went in steel to those as to the mentioned stay-at-homes. For China, it's a bit different: China in bronze is not "combattant", but for all that were indeed there. So a steel China is always to someone who wasn't in China!
Chris Dale Posted February 27, 2011 Posted February 27, 2011 When WWI did break out this gent was in his middle 30's, likely an NCO or a low ranking officer. Although no long service decoration. Others can opine on what the lack of a LS award could mean in this instance. OK, Claudius I'll opine then (I've never used that as a verb before, thanks for the oportunity!). As we've seen its probably RAO, so he's an officer. The lack of LS award is because he's still saving up for his 25 year award? Saschaw, thanks for the clarification on NC medals for China and DSWA. I did not know that difference before. It helps a lot! Cheers Chris
Claudius Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 The KO4 was standard award to Leutnant and Oberleutnants while the RAO4 usually went to Hauptleute and Majore. But: Most peace time officers did not receive the KO4 and started with RAO4 as their first order! Followed by KO3, but that is another story. That's right for SWA, which went in steel to those as to the mentioned stay-at-homes. For China, it's a bit different: China in bronze is not "combattant", but for all that were indeed there. So a steel China is always to someone who wasn't in China! Alright, to summarize then.. DSWA Bronze = Combantant (served in DSWA) Steel = Non-Combantant(served in DSWA) or Stay-at-home China DM Bronze = Combantant or non-combantant (served in China) Steel = Stay-at-home ------------------------------------------------- My question now is, Just how did an individual EARN a DSWA or China if you didn't go anywhere near there? What was the criteria?
saschaw Posted March 3, 2011 Posted March 3, 2011 Thousand possibilities. Management, organization, support, administration... it's much to do at home for such "actions" like a over seas war.
Leutwein Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Sorry but in my opinion a DSWA-medal in steel went also only to those who stayed at homes (and not to Non-Combantant)! Medicals received also the DSWA-medal in bronze for fighters (who were in DSWA!)! EVERYONE who served in DSWA received the DSWA-medal in bronze (like in China)!!! Some exceptions are only civilians (who stayed in DSWA and received the DSWA-medal in steel)!! For example the wife of governor Leutwein received the DSWA-medal in steel or a priest like August Trüten received also the DSWA-medal in steel! For example some medicals who received the DSWA-medal in bronze: Medicals like members of the Red Cross (for example Hermann Finster) received the red cross medal 3rd class with clasp Südwestafrika 04/06 and the DSWA-medal in bronze! Medicals like Oberstabsarzt Dr. Paul Friedrich Hugo Heinrich Schöpwinkel received also the DSWA-medal in bronze! So everyone (fighter or medical or servant or member of the Red Cross) received the DSWA-medal in bronze for fighters (who stayed in DSWA), some exceptions were only civilians and members of the shipowning companies(who stayed in DSWA and received the DSWA-medal in steel)! Best wishes Karsten
Paul C Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 I would say it is an EK and that it is an officiers bar because of the lack of an 8 year long service award.
saschaw Posted March 4, 2011 Posted March 4, 2011 Thanks Karsten. It was Mrs. Leutwein I had in mind... :ninja:
Noor Posted March 6, 2011 Posted March 6, 2011 One of the few bars what I still have. Has been up here before but some kind a suites here to stick up agin... Looks like this guy didn't serve during the WW1 at all (or he really hated Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer, etc commemorative medals ). Meantime this bar is at least from the 1936 or later period. In this case MEZ would make more sence, next to the LS award(s).. maybe one of them is Faitfull Service award from 1938 .
Ulsterman Posted March 15, 2011 Posted March 15, 2011 One of the few bars what I still have. Has been up here before but some kind a suites here to stick up agin... Looks like this guy didn't serve during the WW1 at all (or he really hated Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer, etc commemorative medals ). Meantime this bar is at least from the 1936 or later period. In this case MEZ would make more sence, next to the LS award(s).. maybe one of them is Faitfull Service award from 1938 . I reckon that's a Berlin Detective Inspector type....if it's original (Oh to have Rick L. look at this one).
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