Jump to content
News Ticker
  • I am now accepting the following payment methods: Card Payments, Apple Pay, Google Pay and PayPal
  • Latest News

    Recommended Posts

    Posted (edited)

    Posted on behalf of Rick Research

    One of the most commonly misunderstood aspects of researching anonymous Imperial German award groups is how rare COMBINATIONS of otherwise common awards actually were. Case in point, the prolific Great War numbers of Bavarian Military Merit Crosses (BMVKs with Xs) and Saxe-Meiningen War Merit Medals (SMM). With literally hundreds of thousands of the former (in the BMVK3X bronze classes) and almost 23,000 of the latter, neither of these awards could be considered rare.

    Individually.

    But how many SMMs were bestowed on NCOs, NCO-equivalent military officials, and privates in the Bavarian army?

    A grand (drum roll please) total of 293.

    None of those SMMs to Meininger “strays” in Bavarian uniform (as all were) went to Warrant Officers (Feldwebelleutnant and equivalent) who would have received a BMVK1X.

    Possible recipients of a BMVK2X only numbered 55—and here is a pair of ribbon bars to one of them—

    The 4 ribbon bar is in Prussian precedence (1920s) with dulled silver X device and faded Bavarian long service award in last place, while the lower bar (these came together from the same source) dates from during the war while in Bavarian uniform.

    Divided by rank, these potential “silver X” rankers were

    Wachtmeister-Offizierstellvertreter = 1 (listed as a regular)

    Feldwebel = 4 (all listed as regulars, meaning all would have had a Jubilee Medal 1905 or 1911)

    Wachtmeister = 7 (6 regulars—as above—and 1 dL probably no Jubilee Medal)

    Vizefeldwebel-Offizierstellvertreter = 4 (3 listed as regulars—as above—and 1 dL—as above)

    Vizewachtmeister-Offizierstellvertreter = 2 (1 a regular and 1 dR as noted above for Jubilee or not)

    Unterzahlmeister = 3 (1 perhaps a regular but 2 listed with civilian occupations so NOT regulars)j

    Vizefeldwebel = 21 (14 regulars, 3 dR, and 4 dL likely no Jubilees but regulars held long services)

    Vizewachtmeister = 8 (5 regulars, 2 dR and 1 dL as noted above)

    Offizierstellvertreter (without permanent NCO grade listed) = 4

    Beamten-Stellvertreter = 1 (listed as a regular but this was a wartime temporary “generic” rank)

    Of those 55, 17 had their SMMs gazetted in the Bavarian wartime issues of the Personal Nachrichten. One of the VWms can be removed as a suspect since he was later a Lt dR with no long service award. None of the others had any other “foreign” awards gazetted in the PN, leaving only class of BMVK to reduce potential suspects. The senior 18 NCOs above would either have had a Luitpold Jubilee Medal and a long service award or a long service award, based on whether regulars or Reserve or Landwehr—probably 11 with a 1905 or 1911 Jubilee and long service, so that many can be deducted as “suspects.”

    238 junior NCOs and men who would have received one of the bronze BMVK3X classes (of whom 99 were gazetted in the PN), by rank were as follows—

    Sergeant = 21

    Unteroffizier = 70

    Oberjäger = 2

    Obergefreiter = 2

    Gefreiter = 58

    Privates in all branches of the Bavarian army = 85

    Please bear in mind that of these 55 senior NCOs and 238 junior NCOs and privates, virtually every one who received ANY class of a Bavarian Military Merit Cross would have had that gazetted in the Personal Nachrichten, so pursuing each one of the 293 individually would result in further distinctions possible in BMVKs by classes with Swords and with or without Crown. (It has over 30 years since I’ve had access to the Personal Nachrichten—in the Library of the U.S. Congress, of all places!)

    Here is a gigantic home-made ribbon bar from the Weimar Republic era, for a non-career junior NCO or private:

    In Prussian precedence, this startling bar’s array of very ordinary common awards from states of the Empire with no apparent common service CAN be explained—

    If the recipient was a member of K.B. Infanterie Regiment 8 ,,Großherzog Friedrich II. von Baden.” 216 members of that regiment had Baden awards gazetted in the wartime PNs. 35 of 60 Zähringen Lion Orders were gazetted, for some idea of the likely proportion of awards NOT gazetted.

    After the war, its original wearer was back in “Prussian” territory, wearing his EK2 first. As a former-Bavarian, his BMVK3X came next (the gold swords must NEVER be taken to indicate a BMVK1X without proper context—gold swords devices were routinely used for correct bronze ones. These are of an oddball type only used on 1920s vanity veterans’ private purchase awards). Next his “hometown” SMM, then the otherwise “inexplicable” Baden Silver Merit Medal on MKFVO ribbon, and finally (he was a true warrior) a 1919-21 Silesian Eagle 2nd Class. So WAS this possible?

    Indeed—

    FIVE Meiningers (who received SMMs) strayed into the ranks of Bavarian Infantry Regiment 8—

    One was a Vizefeldwebel-Offizierstellvertreter who can be excluded as a “silver X” grade NCO. The other 4 were

    1) Gefreiter Karl Böttner of 3rd Company,

    2) Gefreiter Friedrich Dreßler of 6th Company (gazetted in PN),

    3) Gefreiter Artur Jakob of 9th Company (gazetted in PN), and

    4) Unteroffizier dR Christian Kallenbach of 9th Company

    It would be extraordinarily difficult to come up with any other “suspects” in the sort of miniscule specialist units (independent signals platoons, mountain mule sections etc) which had no “Inhaber” or territorial origin. It has always been a truism that the lower a soldier’s rank, the less likely he was/is to be decorated—especially lavishly.

    By contrast, a mere 5 SMM holders were Meininger “strays” in Baden units (all of them in Ers Inf Rgt 28), 1 was a Badener in Meiningen’s own Inf Rgt 32, and 2 SMM recipients from Baden were in Saxon units.

    So here we see “common” awards whose recipients can be, respectively, reduced to 1-of-44-or-less and probably-1-of-4… out of the entire Bavarian army!

    It all comes down to having complete Rolls transcribed.

    Source:

    Award Roll of the Saxe-Meiningen War Merit Medal, transcribed by me

    Potential sources for further research:

    The Bavarian wartime ,,Personal Nachrichten,” and Ancestry-dot-com’s Bavarian infantry records online.

    My thanks to Andy for posting this for me since I am not online. Rick Research

    Edited by arb
    Posted

    What a stunning work this man is doing. Just incredible.

    But the second picture is wrong. It should be another bar that I have seen before - but cannot find pictures here.

    Posted (edited)

    If you are able to find the correct picture, I will provide the information to Rick, who will be happy for the additional information.

    Andy

    Edited by arb
    Posted

    Andy, don't you have it? You used twice the same picture which seems to be mistakenly.

    Second one should be a quitze big one, with Baden merit medal and Silesian eagle.

    Posted

    Sascha,

    You are absolutely correct! Here is the second photo.

    Andy

    Posted

    I have a ribbon bar with EK2, BMVO4bX, SMK and LK. Like there is no Bavarian list for officers under grade of Captain, I can not id the owner of this bar

    About the first bar shown here, like the swords are in silver, how can it be id as a NCO ribbon bar ?

    Christophe

    Posted

    1) Gefreiter Karl Böttner of 3rd Company,

    2) Gefreiter Friedrich Dreßler of 6th Company (gazetted in PN),

    3) Gefreiter Artur Jakob of 9th Company (gazetted in PN), and

    4) Unteroffizier dR Christian Kallenbach of 9th Company

    ***

    Potential sources for further research:

    The Bavarian wartime ,,Personal Nachrichten,” and Ancestry-dot-com’s Bavarian infantry records online

    Unfortunately, none of these four pan out from the regimental rolls. None got the Baden decoration.

    1) Gefreiter Karl Böttner of 3rd Company

    Kurt Böttner, born 22.4.1891 in Sonneberg, S-M, Kaufmann in Würzburg. Promoted to Unteroffizier on 7.3.1918

    24.8.1916 Bavarian Military Merit Cross 3rd Class with Swords (BMV5cX)

    8.11.1917 SMM

    23.3.1918 Bavarian DA 3. Klasse (BDA3)

    19.5.1918 EK2

    2) Gefreiter Friedrich Dreßler of 6th Company

    Friedrich Karl Dressler, born 30.9.1890 in Saalfeld a/Saale, Schreiner in Munich.

    27.2.1916 SMM (A.E. v. 27.2.16 Ihr. K. Hoh. der Frau Herzogin Charlotte v. Sachs.-Meiningen)

    19.1.1918 EK2 (Verf. d. 14.b.I.D. No. 275/IIa)

    3) Gefreiter Artur Jakob of 9th Company

    Arthur Jakob, born 30.1.1891 in Beuern, Schalkau, S-M. Promoted to Unteroffizier on 10.5.1916, transferred to bay. 22.IR on 7.6.1917

    11.6.1916 EK2

    20.8.1916 SMM (maybe 28.8.1916)

    14.10.1916 BMV5cX

    4) Unteroffizier dR Christian Kallenbach of 9th Company

    Christian Kallenbach, born 17.5.1889 in Leimbach, S-M., Schneider in Leimbach. Promoted to Sergeant on 12.3.1918.

    11.11.1916 EK2

    1.2.1918 SMM

    2.8.1918 Verw.Abz.schw.

    4.4.1918 BDA3

    Posted

    Dave,

    Thanks for checking the names against the rolls. I'll let Rick know- this should send him back to the salt mines to find this elusive man!

    Andy

    Posted

    Also, if the Vizefeldwebel und Offizierstellvertreter was Friedrich August Zöller, Rick's right about the silver grade. His MVK was a 2nd Class with Crown and Swords. Here is some more biographical information on him:

    Friedrich August Zöller, Vfw.d.L. I u. Offz.Stellv., born 22.6.1886 in Schierschnitz, Sonneberg, S-M. From 5.8.1914 to 23.4.1917 with bay. RIR 5; then 8.IR; promoted to Offz.Stellv. on 20.12.1916; killed in action 7.6.1918.

    14.1.1916 EK2

    12.9.1917 BMV5bXKr

    28.3.1918 BDA3

    1.2.1918 SMM

    • 4 weeks later...
    Posted (edited)

    Well, I have now gone through the Kriegsrangliste and Kriegsstammrolle entries of every Bavarian soldier born in Sachsen-Meiningen, and unfortunately I still can't find a match. There were about 2800 records, but since many soldiers have multiple entries as they changed units, I can't say what the actual number of Meiningers in Bavarian service was. It is also possible I missed some records, since there are quite a lot of misspellings of names and birthplaces in Ancestry.com's database. There were even a lot of non-Meiningers: the Bezirkamt Memmingen in Bavarian Swabia was frequently misspelled as Meiningen.

    However, most soldiers did have more than one record. For example, one Kriegsstammrolle entry from the regimental Ersatz-Abteilung and one or more from various companies within a regiment. Sometimes a Lazarett unit record if they were off the line for a while. So even if one record on a particular soldier didn't show up because they misspelled Meiningen, it is likely that another record got it spelled right. So the odds are I saw a record for every Meininger.

    What are the odds that a Baden award might have been processed after the war and not shown up in a Kriegsstammrolle? Maybe there's still hope of confirming one of Rick's candidates or another elusive Meininger.

    Similarly, I found no matches among the officers for my elusive ribbon and medal bar. I only found one viable candidate with the EK2, BMV4X, 1905 Jubilee Medal and SMK combination, with the SMK awarded before the BMV4X (the ribbon bar has just the EK2, SMK and Bavarian Army Jubilee), but none of the records show the Austrian and Bulgarian decorations (although the service record does show that he was in that theater). So what are the odds that the Austrian and Bulgarian awards might have come too late to be in a Kriegsrangliste?

    -------

    Though I couldn't find matches for our mystery men, I can make some observations about awards to natives of Meiningen in general.

    For officers: most had the Prussian Iron Cross, Bavarian Military Merit Order and the Sachsen-Meiningen Honor Cross for Merit in War. Only a few missed out on completing the trio, and many had other awards, especially among the more highly decorated staff officers. Quite a few were medical officers.

    For NCOs and enlisted men:

    • First, probably more than a quarter had no war decorations. Some of them did have other things like a Dienstauszeichnung.
    • Another quarter or so have only a single state's war decoration, either a Prussian Iron Cross 2nd Class, a Bavarian Military Merit Cross with Swords, or a Sachsen-Meiningen Honor Medal for Merit in War. Again, some of them did have other awards like the Dienstauszeichnung, the Bavarian Army Jubilee Medal (1905) or Prinz-Regent-Luitpold-Medaille (1911).
    • Another quarter or so have war decorations from two states, usually an EK2 and Bavarian MVK or an EK2 and SMM, occasionally an MVK and SMM but no EK2 (far less common). The more well decorated might also have the Iron Cross 1st Class and/or a second Bavarian award such as a higher grade of the MVK or a Silver Bravery Medal
    • Less than a quarter have awards from all three states (again plus perhaps other Bavarian awards or an EK1)
    • One Meininger didn't have the SMM but did have the Merit Medal with Swords of the Saxe-Ernestine House Order. I forgot to write it down but I think he was a Lazarett-Inspektor-Stellvertreter at the Reserve-Lazarett Coburg (also, while the Res.-Laz. Coburg's records are there because it came under a Bavarian inspectorate, it was a Prussian formation, and most of the doctors and staff were non-Bavarians).

    I only found two men who managed to get awards from four states: Prussia, Bavaria, their native Sachsen-Meinigen and a fourth. Unfortunately, as I said above, not Baden. In both cases it was foreign: Austria-Hungary.

    • Franz Hey, a Vizefeldw. u. Offz.-Stellv. born 25 Dec. 1892 in the city of Meiningen, who served from 1912 to 1918 with various flying units, received the pilot's badge, the EK1 & EK2, the SMM, a Bavarian MVK with Swords (the Kriegsstammrolle doesn't say what grade, but given his rank either a 2nd Class or 2nd Class with Crown), and the Austro-Hungarian Silver Merit Cross on the ribbon of the Bravery Medal.

    • Adolf Krieg, born 17 Sept. 1886 in Henneberg, Landkreis Meiningen, entered service in 1907 and became a Kapitulant in 1909. He was a Sergeant when the war broke out, became a Vizefeldwebel on 25 April 1915, and an Offz.-Stellv. on 14 June 1915. In the war, he served in the 1. Ers.-MG-Kp./Inf.-Leib-Regt., 3. Ers.-MG-Kp./Inf.-Leib-Regt., Geb.-MG-Abt. 207, 1. Bay. IR, and 26. Bay. IR. He was taken prisoner in Belgium on 28 Sept. 1918. he recieved the Iron Cross 1st and 2nd Class, the Bavarian MVK 2nd Class with Crown and Swords, the SMM, the Austro-Hungarian Bronze Bravery Medal, the silver Wound Badge, the Bavarian Prinz-Regent-Luitpold-Medaille, the Bavarian DA 3rd Class. Interestingly, one of his Stammrolle entries also lists the June 1915 award of the "Österr. Edelw.". At the time he was serving in Geb.-MG-Abt. 207.

    Best regards,

    Dave

    Edited by Dave Danner
    Posted

    I just came across another possible scenario which might broaden the search.

    While updating and editing the recipients of the Princely Schwarzburg Honor Cross, I came across a Bavarian officer, Valentin Geck, who received the SEK3X as an Olt.d.R. in the Bavarian 21. Inf.-Regt. The rolls from Schwarzburg-Sondershausen generally only give a name and unit, and only sometimes give a residence, usually when the recipient is not from a Thuringian unit.

    In Olt. Geck's case, his residence was listed as Arnstadt, the largest city in the principality. Going to the Bavarian Kriegsranglisten, I found Geck's record, which show that he was born in Zautendorf, Fürth, Bayern (Zautendorf is now a part of Cadolzburg, a suburb of Fürth). His Arnstadt connection? His civilian job is listed as Gymnasialoberlehrer in Arnstadt.

    Why is this relevant? He was an officer in 21.bay.IR, whose Inhaber was the Grand Duke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin. As a Bavarian officer, he received the BMV4X. As an officer in 21.bay.IR, he received the Mecklenburg-Schwerin MVK 2nd Class. And because of his Arnstadt connection, he received the SEK3X. The EK2 and the 1905 Bavarian Army Jubilee Medal round out his awards.

    So like our elusive Bavarian-Baden-Meiningen enlisted man, he got one award due to the Army he was in, one due to the regiment, and one due to his residence. But he wasn't born in Schwarzburg-Sondershausen, he just worked there. Having gone through all the Meiningen-born soldiers and not finding a match, now I have to think maybe Rick's guy wasn't born in Meiningen, but moved there at some point.

    Create an account or sign in to comment

    You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

    Create an account

    Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

    Register a new account

    Sign in

    Already have an account? Sign in here.

    Sign In Now
    ×
    ×
    • Create New...

    Important Information

    We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.