American (US) Victory Medals

[Hugh]

This won't be very exciting to you old hands, but here are some pictures of my great uncle's WW I Victory Medal. I'm trying to figure out what unit he was with, and hoped that the clasps might allow some of you to suggest a possible list. Or, just refer me to a site where I can look up which units were eligible for these three (and only these three).

Charles William Jenkins was a machine gunner who enlisted in either Delaware or Pennsylvania, if that helps identify a unit. At one point, he was billeted with a French family, and got a Christmas letter every year from the son of the family well into the '70's. I did the translation with difficulty because of the typical French handwriting from that era.

He also gave me an Iron Cross 1st Class, which is still in my collection. Alas, I have no documents. His apartment was a rat trap, and I suspect someone went in with a shovel to clean out.

I'd be grateful for any help.

Hugh

Edited August 7, 2010 by Hugh

[Hugh]

A closer look at the clasps, well familiar to most of you.

[Hugh]

The ribbon is in terrible shape, very fragile, and the brooch has fallen off. Perhaps it will give you an idea of the manufacturer. There appears to be an indecipherable diamond-shaped hallmark under the fourth feather of Victory's right wing.

[Hugh]

This picture won't give you much more than the general shape of the hallmark (if it's not just a ding). There's no detail or relief discernable at all within the diamond shape. No sign of a hallmark on the ring, edge or elsewhere.

[johnnymac]

This picture won't give you much more than the general shape of the hallmark (if it's not just a ding). There's no detail or relief discernable at all within the diamond shape. No sign of a hallmark on the ring, edge or elsewhere.

This is just a starting point: There are many units who received the three clasp you show inyour listing. One of these units is the79th Division. was made up of mostly National Guard units from Maryland &Pennsylvania. In the 79th Division therewere 3 Machine Guns unit assigned to it:

157th Infantry Brigade, 311th Machine Gun Battalion

158th Infantry Brigade, 312th Machine Gun Battalion

Divisional Troops: 310th Machine Gun Battalion.

Is this the right the unit you are looking, I do not know, but as I said, its a start. The 79th had a bookprinted on it action and the members names might be in it.. check your local Library or ask them toorder it from the main Library.

Regards, JohnnyMac (JM)<br style="mso-special-character:line-break"><br style="mso-special-character:line-break">

[Hugh]

This is just a starting point: There are many units who received the three clasp you show inyour listing. One of these units is the79th Division. was made up of mostly National Guard units from Maryland &Pennsylvania. In the 79th Division therewere 3 Machine Guns unit assigned to it:

157th Infantry Brigade, 311th Machine Gun Battalion

158th Infantry Brigade, 312th Machine Gun Battalion

Divisional Troops: 310th Machine Gun Battalion.

Is this the right the unit you are looking, I do not know, but as I said, its a start. The 79th had a bookprinted on it action and the members names might be in it.. check your local Library or ask them toorder it from the main Library.

Regards, JohnnyMac (JM)<br style="mso-special-character:line-break"><br style="mso-special-character:line-break">

This is exactly the sort of response I was hoping for. Thank you so much. I'll start looking around for the book.

Hugh

[RobW]

The particular combination of bars varies considerably from the normal 28th Division examples that have both the Champagne-Marne and Aisne-Marne bars and not the Ypres-Lys clasp. As discussed sometime back, the Laslo and Nixon matrix's do not cover these minor variations.

...That got me thinking, and I wonder if maybe this is why Laslo removed the matrix after his first edition, because of these inconsistencies in the War Department reference and that a simple matrix could not account for all the possible variations of individual cases and these remaining inconsistencies in the War Department reference. We know they added units, evidenced by the errata pages in the front, but were there more?

Tim

Hello Tim,

I would agree that both matrices from Nixon and Laslo are good for illustrating qualifying unit at the Divisional level but for anything other than that more research and digging is required. I also am aware that, in addition to the errata added to the 'Battle Participation' reference, at the time of publication in 1920, many more minor amendments were made until at least the late 1930s. Where these amendments are recorded are anyones guess. Of course all the qualifying credit applies to individuals and not units so it is not all too uncommon for a specific individual to have moved around and hence become qualified for other clasps.

I have an enlarged cobbled together listing of units and sub-units and clasp entitlement but it is not suitable for anything but the most cursory and initial searches.

In addition to the 'Battle Participation' reference I also use:

* Order of Battle of the US Land Forces in the World War, AEF: Divisions. 1931. This has cronologies of operations and movements.

* The History of the AEF by Shipley Thomas, 1920. This volume also provides a short synopsis of each Division and has a good level of detail.

This at least helps me narrow down the possible circumstances of a difference or variation in battle clasp entitlement.

Regards,

Rob

Edited August 15, 2010 by RobW

[Hugh]

This is just a starting point: There are many units who received the three clasp you show in your listing. One of these units is the79th Division. was made up of mostly National Guard units from Maryland &Pennsylvania. In the 79th Division there were 3 Machine Guns unit assigned to it:

157th Infantry Brigade, 311th Machine Gun Battalion

158th Infantry Brigade, 312th Machine Gun Battalion

Divisional Troops: 310th Machine Gun Battalion.

Is this the right the unit you are looking, I do not know, but as I said, its a start. The 79th had a book printed on its action and the members names might be in it. Check your local Library or ask them to order it from the main Library.

Regards, JohnnyMac (JM)<br style="mso-special-character:line-break"><br style="mso-special-character:line-break">

I'm trying to find my great-uncle's unit in WW I. He was a machine gunner from Delaware / Pennsylvania. I posted his Victory Medal in that thread and got the suggestion from Johnnymac to look in the following book.

Title: History of the Seventy-Ninth Division A.E.F. During the World

War: 1917-1919

>Author: History Committee, 79th Division Association

>Publisher: Steinman

I've found it at Alibris, but it's very expensive, and before I buy, I'd be very grateful if someone might be able to look to see if you find Charles William Jenkins. Many thanks in advance.

Hugh

[Hugh]

I'm trying to find my great-uncle's unit in WW I. He was a machine gunner from Delaware / Pennsylvania. I posted his Victory Medal in that thread and got the suggestion from Johnnymac to look in the following book.

Title: History of the Seventy-Ninth Division A.E.F. During the World

War: 1917-1919

>Author: History Committee, 79th Division Association

>Publisher: Steinman

I've found it at Alibris, but it's very expensive, and before I buy, I'd be very grateful if someone might be able to look to see if you find Charles William Jenkins. Many thanks in advance.

Finally dug the book up in our library. Couldn't find Uncle Charlie, but had a good time reading about their war and seeing the pictures.

Hugh

[RobW]

Hello all,

Here is a standard US vic with 3 clasps attributable to many of the Divisions of the AEF.

While it looks just the same as every other US vic, what makes this one a bit different is the fact that the DEFENSIVE SECTOR clasp has spacers on it. This can be seen on closer inspeciton but may not be immediately noticeable in this pic.

All of the battle clasps had spacers on them to ensure a uniform gap between clasps on the ribbon except for the DEFENSIVE SECTOR clasp. This was because it was always supposed to be on the bottom and therefore needed no clasps. In this example it has spacers and I have seen many examples with both types of bars with or without spacers. I will proffer that the DEFENSIVE SECTOR clasp with spacers is seen less regularly though. I can offer no explanation for this but would be happy to hear from other US vic collectors.

Close-ups of the bars to follow.

Regards,

Rob

[RobW]

And here is a close-up of the clasps themselves. The spacer on the DEFENSIVE SECTOR clasp is immediately noticeable.

Regards,

Rob

[johnnymac]

And here is a close-up of the clasps themselves. The spacer on the DEFENSIVE SECTOR clasp is immediately noticeable.

Regards,

Rob

To Rob,

There may have been a misunderstanding in the original manufacturing order and the spacers were later removed before being issued, where-as your being the case where they were missed. You will note that the top three Defensive Sector clasps have a nubs at each end of clasp. Which tells me that at one time there were spacers. Later they were made without the spacer bars, note the bottom two were manufactured without any hint of a spacer bar.

Regards, Johnnymac (JM)

Edited August 24, 2010 by johnnymac

[Hugh]

Hello all,

Here is a standard US vic with 3 clasps attributable to many of the Divisions of the AEF.

While it looks just the same as every other US vic, what makes this one a bit different is the fact that the DEFENSIVE SECTOR clasp has spacers on it. This can be seen on closer inspeciton but may not be immediately noticeable in this pic.

All of the battle clasps had spacers on them to ensure a uniform gap between clasps on the ribbon except for the DEFENSIVE SECTOR clasp. This was because it was always supposed to be on the bottom and therefore needed no clasps. In this example it has spacers and I have seen many examples with both types of bars with or without spacers. I will proffer that the DEFENSIVE SECTOR clasp with spacers is seen less regularly though. I can offer no explanation for this but would be happy to hear from other US vic collectors.

Close-ups of the bars to follow.

Regards,

Rob

My great-uncle's medal (Post # 475 this thread) has spacers on his Defensive Sector bar.

[Tim B]

Hi guys,

I've only seen a couple examples that have the Defensive Bar with the hubs and often wondered if they were made that way prior to any regulation that put the Defensive Sector bar last (on the bottom) on the ribbon.

I will add, that anytime I see the bars out or normal sequencing, I usually find the suspension ring has been opened and attribute that to the bars being moved, added, or replaced. Could it be possible that at one point in time the Defensive Sector bar was on top?

Thoughts?

Tim

[RobW]

Hello all,

I had previously seen a number of US vics with the DEFENSIVE SECTOR (DS) clasp placed at the top of all other battle clasps and have also seen a number of 4 - 5 clasp US vics with such a DS clasp, with spacers present on the bottom. In these cases the correct purple thread is still present at the top of the ribbon and wrap brooch indicating that is how the medals were assembled.

It sounds reasonable that the earliest issue of DS clasps that were produced had spacers before it was established that they should go on the bottom. This would make sense as the final DS clasp was produced, among other reasons, to supplant the requirement for a FIRST ARMY or SECOND ARMY clasp. The approval for it occurred a bit later than the original battle clasps. I have a pic of a US vic with the FIRST and SECOND ARMY clasps attached and there is no DS clasp, but this is just a representative pic to illustrate what the clasps would have looked like and not an actual medal.

In this 3 bar US vic, there has been no tampering with the suspension ring, and the ribbon is still correctly affixed at the top. In addition there is consistent clasp and ribbon wear. There is no extra wear near the base of the ribbon which would suggest clasps have been removed. This indicates to me that it is all good.

To Hugh,

Thanks for the added clarification. I re-checked your pics and it is clear on the close-up (post #476) that the DS claps has spacers. This was something that I didn't pickup on at the time.

Again an interesting side-issue with vics. Always something to keep one busy.

Regards,

Rob

Edited August 25, 2010 by RobW

[Tim B]

Hi Rob,

That would probably be my guess then, that initially, all bars were made with this hub on the ends until regulation placed the DS clasp on the bottom.

Tim

[RobW]

Hi Rob,

That would probably be my guess then, that initially, all bars were made with this hub on the ends until regulation placed the DS clasp on the bottom.

Tim

Hey Tim,

Just to add some clarifying detail. The medal posted before (#488) was contained in a longer S.G. Adams box that had the same 3 battle clasp named in purple ink on the outisde of the box in the same manner as that shown in a pic on post #276. The only thing missing from the set was the authorisation slip.

Regards,

Rob

[Tim B]

Hey Rob,

That's good to know and food for thought, as I have always taken a harder look at ones that had the DS clasp located anywhere but on the bottom.

I have seen cases where the seller, or recent buyer, has claimed this is the way the vet had it, but again, there are also cases where clearly the ring has been opened and to a lessor degree, the top removed, though I never understood why someone would remove the pin when the ring was easier to move.

Anyway, another interesting aspect to collecting these!

Tim

[Gunner 1]

Hugh wrote:

I'd be very grateful if someone might be able to look to see if you find Charles William Jenkins.

Charles William Jenkins is not listed in the nominal roll in my copy of the History of 311th Machine Gun Battalion, 79th Division AEF.

Gunner 1

[Hugh]

Hugh wrote:

Charles William Jenkins is not listed in the nominal roll in my copy of the History of 311th Machine Gun Battalion, 79th Division AEF.

Gunner 1

Thanks for that, Gunner! I didn't find him in the 79th Div. history either, but that's only KIA and decorations.

Hugh

[army historian]

Here is my 2 cents, I don't have many Victory Medals, a few in groups. This is a Navy victory Medal with "Escort" Bar, awarded to Lt. Adolph Berry Adams (National Naval Volunteers) - California State Naval Militia. He served on the USS San Diego, and left just prior to her sinking in 1917. The only major U.S. Ship lost during the War. The Medal is absolutely correct as issued, it came from his estate (via Grandson) with the rest of his medals (See post Recipients Stories). Cheers Captain Albert

[Tim B]

Another US 77th. Division piece with the issue box by the Art Medal Works with matching bar stamps. The medal is also near mint and allows me to upgrade my other 77th Div piece.

Tim

[Tim B]

Thought I would add some more today as it's been quiet lately. This set of paperwork applies to the actual application process for those desiring the WW1 US Victory Medal. It sold today, and go figure that I actually thought I might get it.

Anyway, thought it interesting and certainly adds to the thread! Enjoy.

Tim

First, is a basic letter to a member of the US "1st Division" with some background information on what the division qualified for and what paperwork needed to be provided for the member to receive the medal.

[Tim B]

Next, is what appears to be a return information form so the issuing authority knows where to send the medal and if the original discharge certificate was sent in, then to return that as well (prepaid .10 stamp):P

[Tim B]

Next, is the actual application. Interesting to see that the member had to initiate an actual application and to fill in the desired (authorized) clasps. Apparently, the issuing authority bounced the application against the discharge certificate.

I wonder if there was a process that delved into the member's service a little deeper, such as looking for time away from the front or missing campaigns due to wounds or illness? You would think so, but I see no mention of it. Normally, the discharge certificate shows the awards the member received but no real details.