Soviet Which one would you research?

[Digger Doug]

A couple months ago, I picked up a little group of Soviet orders from a guy who bought them together as a group several years ago. While there's no document with the orders, he was sure they all belonged to the same guy. The "group" consists of the following: Red Banner #304144, Red Star (w/ screw base) #121962, and a 1985 OPW2 #1722866. I got the lot of them for much less than the cost of the individual pieces so I didn't care too much whether they went together or not but am now thinking about researching one of the pieces in the event this really is a group.

My question to you guys is this: Which one do I research? The early Red Star should be interesting given that it was given when a Red Star was still considered important. On the other hand, Red Banners are usually pretty interesting unless they are long service. Given the high serial, this one may be for long service. Assuming that these are unrelated orders, which would you research? I'm not ready to research both just yet.

Doug

[HuliganRS]

I'd go with the Red Star.

It's a solid award with good chances of a great research!

Rusty.

[Ed_Haynes]

Let me chime in with my novice agreement with Rusty.

And do let us know what you find!

[NavyFCO]

Go with the Red Star... The Red Banner is almost 100% long service.

Of course, when the new book comes out, you'll be able to know for sure...

Dave

[Ed_Haynes]

Of course, when the new book comes out, you'll be able to know for sure...

Details, please, . . . ????

[NavyFCO]

Details, please, . . . ????

Shhhh.... it's a secret!

Just kidding... a new book is scheduled to come out this Spring that details Soviet military awards by serial number and Ukaz/Prikaz date. That way, you'll be able to see that Red Banner 2XX,XXX was awarded on 10 May 1945 by Prikaz number XX of the 1st Belorussian Front, etc. It will allow folks to pin down within a reasonable certainty what awards were issued for what operation.

Dave

[Ed_Haynes]

Shhhh.... it's a secret!

Just kidding... a new book is scheduled to come out this Spring that details Soviet military awards by serial number and Ukaz/Prikaz date. That way, you'll be able to see that Red Banner 2XX,XXX was awarded on 10 May 1945 by Prikaz number XX of the 1st Belorussian Front, etc. It will allow folks to pin down within a reasonable certainty what awards were issued for what operation.

Dave

Interesting, Dave, interesting. Not wanting to hijack this thread, but please give more details somewhere, when available. I had always thought there was too much "looseness" in the wartime Soviet awards system to pin awards down this closely and pseudoscientifically. Would be happy to be proved wrong (once again).

[NavyFCO]

I had always thought there was too much "looseness" in the wartime Soviet awards system to pin awards down this closely and pseudoscientifically.

I don't think you can ever precisely pin down things, but there are several thousand award listings in the book so it should be able to give you a good idea what was issued when for what.

There will always be holes though... For example, Rick's Red Banner was issued for .... (whoops! Almost told you!) but it falls within the serial number range for Revolution awards.

However, the book is a good try at trying to pin everything down, and it's very pro-research. The author included citations and stories about how people were awarded certain awards so it should be as good of a read as it is a valuable reference book.

Dave

[Guest Rick Research]

Please keep us posted on that book. Sounds to me like an excellent source for the mass long service awards, but not going to help (?) with the 1 or 10 or whatever sort of indovoidual command bestowals.

Still, absolutely EVERYTHING helps!

[NavyFCO]

Please keep us posted on that book. Sounds to me like an excellent source for the mass long service awards, but not going to help (?) with the 1 or 10 or whatever sort of indovoidual command bestowals.

Still, absolutely EVERYTHING helps!

It should help to an extent. Most of the units that we listed in the book were at the Front or Army level. Consider that each of these units received roughly 1000 (or more) consectutively serial numbered awards, you should be able to pinpoint a good percentage of awards to what Front/Army they were given to. Also, you should be able to determine the approximate month/year of issue the award for about 95% percent of awards. The great thing about this is that if, in the book you see a Red Banner that is say, 215,XXX, and you find another one that's a 215 or even 214 or 216, and that award was a 1st Belorussian Front Berlin Operation award, your chances are really good that it's another Berlin operation award rather than simply one that was issued "mid-1945".

Dave

[Paul R]

I actually have two that I would have researched... a screwback Order of the Red Banner and a second award Order of the Red Banner (with a 2).

[Paul R]

Is it true that when the ORB were screw back awards, they were still issued for valor only?

I cannot wait until that book is released!

Paul

[NavyFCO]

Is it true that when the ORB were screw back awards, they were still issued for valor only?

I cannot wait until that book is released!

Paul

Paul:

They were awarded for valor as well as notable accomplishments in training and combat support. In June 1944, they were opened up for long service awards. The pre-June 1944 ones don't always fit into the "super exciting" combat valor category though - much of it depended on the awarding discretion of the unit, the surrounding circumstances and the like.

Dave

[Paul R]

With Gerd's help,

Order of the Red Banner Screw Back #68 994 is dated around mid 1943. I think that I will make a research request on this one!

[Gerd Becker]

With Gerd's help,

Order of the Red Banner Screw Back #68 994 is dated around mid 1943. I think that I will make a research request on this one!

Thats a good decision, Paul. Let us know, what comes out.

The book, Dave talks about is in the printers and will be available in Spring this year. Can?t await to get my copy

Gerd

[Digger Doug]

Thanks for all the replys. I was kind of leaning toward the Red Star too assuming that the Red Banner was for long service. I'm also looking forward to the book Dave mentions. I've recently made a plea to the publisher to see a draft as I can't wait until the summer release date to pour over it. I know that at least a couple of you who read these posts contributed data. As I have a particular interest in the Berlin Operation, I've been hoarding a little stash of Red Stars, Glory 3's, OPW2's and Valor medals that I think are potential Berlin awards. With the book, I hope to know which ones to submit for research that have the best chance of coming back with Berlin citations.

Doug

[Ed_Haynes]

I hope that, when "the book" comes, we relax our discrete approach and engage in a moment of shameless capitalism and speak out loud where it is available, what the title is, and so on. All this wink-wink may be very cute, but it only allows them as already knows to make shelf space for the book.

[NavyFCO]

I hope that, when "the book" comes, we relax our discrete approach and engage in a moment of shameless capitalism and speak out loud where it is available, what the title is, and so on. All this wink-wink may be very cute, but it only allows them as already knows to make shelf space for the book.

Ed-

And now you are one of us.

Make room on your shelf!

Dave