Mongolia herder badges ...

[Dolf]

Here's a question. I have seen the J02 mirror-backs (which I believe to be earlier than the flat-back J02s) in both silvered bronze and bronze versions (is the silver coating simply gone?) and with serial numbers at 11-o'clock (Battushig's example. #32) and at 8-o'clock (this specimen, #2949). What is happening here??

About these J 02:

I have two mirror reverse, S/N 3344 and S/N 3345 (yes, lucky hein? ) and both look like silver and both have the S/N at 8 o'clock. I don't think I've ever seen one of these with the S/N at 11 o'clock as the sample shown on Dr. Battushig's book! I wonder if the real S/N at 8 o'clock has not been erased for some reason and S/N 32 just added at 11 o'clock!

Ed have you ever seen others with the S/N on that location?

My other J 02 is a flatback version, S/N 4450, and in this case the S/N is at 6 o'clock.

Will post pics later.

Dolf

[Dolf]

Congrats Dolf a very nice item indeed.

Well it would be rude not to share so here goes.

Not sure if I wanna keep them both but they sure look good as a pair.

fjcp,

Thanks, and congrats for your beautiful pieces too!

If they were serial numbered it might have make sense to keep both, as for example my two J 02 with S/Ns following each other, otherwise... well, not my business anyway

Dolf

[Ed_Haynes]

So . . .

. . . might we tentatively say?

J 01 - Type 1 (Mongol legend, crude construction, mirror reverse); Low = 15/High = 399

J 02b - Type 2.1 (Mongol legend, mirror reverse); Low = 32/High = 4100

J 02a - Type 2.2 (Mongol legend, flat reverse); Low = 4246/High = 4450

J 03 - Type 3 (Cyrillic legend, unnumbered)

????????????

[Dolf]

So . . .

. . . might we tentatively say?

J 01 - Type 1 (Mongol legend, crude construction, mirror reverse); Low = 15/High = 399

J 02b - Type 2.1 (Mongol legend, mirror reverse); Low = 32/High = 4100

J 02a - Type 2.2 (Mongol legend, flat reverse); Low = 4246/High = 4450

J 03 - Type 3 (Cyrillic legend, unnumbered)

????????????

Ed,

I guess, I honestely haven't checked it, I trust you and Jan for this kind of "details"

Dolf

[fjcp]

About these J 02:

I have two mirror reverse, S/N 3344 and S/N 3345 (yes, lucky hein? ) and both look like silver and both have the S/N at 8 o'clock. I don't think I've ever seen one of these with the S/N at 11 o'clock as the sample shown on Dr. Battushig's book! I wonder if the real S/N at 8 o'clock has not been erased for some reason and S/N 32 just added at 11 o'clock!

Ed have you ever seen others with the S/N on that location?

My other J 02 is a flatback version, S/N 4450, and in this case the S/N is at 6 o'clock.

Will post pics later.

Dolf

I got all excited when you posted those serial numbers. I thought we had matching numbers.....now that would have been interesting.....

My two J02s are both mirror reverse......(anybody have a spare flatback??? ) the SNs are 3444 and 3471 and both are marked at the 8 o'clock position.

I'm just curious about the silver or brass issue since

I'm not sure what mine are.....

The weight difference between a silver and a brass badge would be between 17% and 20%, excluding the weight of the enamel, screw post, and screw plate of course.

My badges weigh 15.8grams for sn 3477 and 15.7grams for sn 3444.

Dolf could you weigh yours?

So does anybody know how to distinguish the two?

[Dolf]

So . . .

. . . might we tentatively say?

J 01 - Type 1 (Mongol legend, crude construction, mirror reverse); Low = 15/High = 399

J 02b - Type 2.1 (Mongol legend, mirror reverse); Low = 32/High = 4100

J 02a - Type 2.2 (Mongol legend, flat reverse); Low = 4246/High = 4450

J 03 - Type 3 (Cyrillic legend, unnumbered)

????????????

Ed,

Have you forgot to mention J 04? There are also 2 variations of this one as listed on "the book".

This type is not serial numbered as for J 03.

Dolf

[GlennC]

I have in my collection

J 02b - Type 2.1 (Mongol legend, mirror reverse) #3388, 3422, 3470 S/N at 8 o'clock.

[Ed_Haynes]

Ed,

Have you forgot to mention J 04? There are also 2 variations of this one as listed on "the book".

This type is not serial numbered as for J 03.

Dolf

No, this one isn't here intentionally. My understanding is that this is more of a RANGER-herder (=~ "cowboy") badge than a herder (=~ "shepherd") badge. I gather this is one of the mis-identifications that we have inherited from Herfurt's somewhat clumsy pre-Battushig efforts.

Separate badge, separate series. Will put up one when I have one, but in another thread. Can someone launch us onto that one, please.

Yet I must admit I have trouble figuring out the two that Dr. B shows -- J 04 and J 04b -- is there any difference?? I know this gets arcane, but . . . ?!

But:

[Guest Rick Research]

That's very interesting about the first type badges having their serial numbers RAISED and apparently CAST as PART of the badge-- suggesting that each one was individually made?

Can anybody with technical skill try "overlapping" the images transparently one on top of the other to see how much each specific one varies from another-- or is that too complicated, and requires coordination for all being the same precise size to compare together?

Ed: we have noticed that quite often the ?nickel "silver" finish on bronze-base Soviet circa 1940s badges (railways etc) seems to have "evaporated" away. The test seems to be if the nickel finish remains intact INSIDE the screw nut where it got less air up tight against the badge. I don't think they were MADE in two finishes, they have just lost one over time through age. It's not a question of being buffed or polished off either. A number of Third Reich badges also have that as a "low bid" problem.

[Dolf]

I got all excited when you posted those serial numbers. I thought we had matching numbers.....now that would have been interesting.....

My two J02s are both mirror reverse......(anybody have a spare flatback??? ) the SNs are 3444 and 3471 and both are marked at the 8 o'clock position.

I'm just curious about the silver or brass issue since

I'm not sure what mine are.....

The weight difference between a silver and a brass badge would be between 17% and 20%, excluding the weight of the enamel, screw post, and screw plate of course.

My badges weigh 15.8grams for sn 3477 and 15.7grams for sn 3444.

Dolf could you weigh yours?

So does anybody know how to distinguish the two?

fjcp,

Have you seen the size of my display...

Ok off the wall again...

Hey, just kidding

So, for the weight:

#3344 (mirror-reverse) ? 16,80gr

#3345 (mirror-reverse) ? 16,20gr

#4450 (flatback) ? 19,75gr

Of course, this is without the screwnuts.

The flatback seems to be a bit harder to find than the mirror-reverse, anyway only have one of these, fjcp, sorry

In my humble opinion I think they are all in silver, simply on some the silver is darker than on other. If you clean them I suppose they all will shine like... silver.

But some collectors state they exist in brass and silver (Jan has a theory on this, he might be the right person to help you on finding the differences, if they exist), I just don't know, I believe both mine are silver and so far I haven't had others on my hands. Soon I should so I will see.

If you want to test yours you just have to bring them to a trustworthy and competent jewller and ask him for check it, if you don't mind they do a test on your pieces: a little scratch on the reverse, then a drop of some liquid and depending on the color it takes, it's solid silver, or silverplated brass or brass.

I didn't test mine but I was told it won't damage them, as anyway after the test they can polish themand you hardly will notice whatever they did.

Hope it helps.

Dolf

[Ed_Haynes]

That's very interesting about the first type badges having their serial numbers RAISED and apparently CAST as PART of the badge-- suggesting that each one was individually made?

It would seem that way. Very interesting indeed. The two I have show precisely that manufacturing style. But, then, what the badge commemorates mattered immensely in the early history of the MPR. More than most of that silly military stuff.

Can anybody with technical skill try "overlapping" the images transparently one on top of the other to see how much each specific one varies from another-- or is that too complicated, and requires coordination for all being the same precise size to compare together?

Would side-by-side scans do? Let us see what can be done. But I have, as yet, specimens of but two varieties. Working on it . . . . Ad interim, see below?

Ed: we have noticed that quite often the ?nickel "silver" finish on bronze-base Soviet circa 1940s badges (railways etc) seems to have "evaporated" away. The test seems to be if the nickel finish remains intact INSIDE the screw nut where it got less air up tight against the badge. I don't think they were MADE in two finishes, they have just lost one over time through age. It's not a question of being buffed or polished off either. A number of Third Reich badges also have that as a "low bid" problem.

This is precisely what I am thinking. My #2949 specimen clearly shows (eluding a clean scan image with that long screw-post) the number engraved through the silver coating down into the brass below. Whether absorbed or evaporated, the "silver" (mercury wash?) seems to have gone bye-bye.

[Dolf]

No, this one isn't here intentionally. My understanding is that this is more of a RANGER-herder (=~ "cowboy") badge than a herder (=~ "shepherd") badge. I gather this is one of the mis-identifications that we have inherited from Herfurt's somewhat clumsy pre-Battushig efforts.

Separate badge, separate series. Will put up one when I have one, but in another thread. Can someone launch us onto that one, please.

Yet I must admit I have trouble figuring out the two that Dr. B shows -- J 04 and J 04b -- is there any difference?? I know this gets arcane, but . . . ?!

But:

Ed,

ok, that's what I thought anyway, J 04 is indeed a Best Ranger, but as they are all four types listed as J 01, J 02, J 03, J 04, on the Agriculture series, I don't make a huge difference between them.

Right now I only have here with me one J 04, which I believe it's J 04b. There is one J 04 on it's way here so I'll post both as soon as I get this last one. I think that the only slightely differences concern the colors, mainly the sky, than anything else. I have pics but not as detailed as I usually do them here with the scanner (which I prefer to the digital camera for small details) so better post them later.

Dolf

[Dolf]

Ok, here are my Best Herder, J 02. Rather than my usual 600dpi scans, in order to try to speed up playing a bit these are 400dpi.

Mirror-reverse, S/N 3344.

Obverse:

Dolf

[Dolf]

Same, reverse:

Dolf

[Dolf]

Mirror-reverse, S/N 3345.

Obverse:

Dolf

[Dolf]

Same, reverse:

Dolf

[Dolf]

Now the flatback, S/N 4450.

Obverse:

Dolf

[Dolf]

Same, reverse:

Dolf

[Vatjan]

Here is a (sub-)series of badges with the SN on the 11 o'clock position

[Dolf]

Here is a (sub-)series of badges with the SN on the 11 o'clock position

Jan,

Thanks for posting these.

So after all they do exist!

Cheers,

Dolf

[fjcp]

I have seen two flatback herders badges for sale recently. One on Ebay and the other on a dealers site both with serial numbers outside the expected range... Any thoughts?

Edited April 1, 2006 by fjcp

[fjcp]

second one.

[Vatjan]

Notice the back on the 4000-range flatbacks is really flat, on these early ones, the backs are slightly uneven, the plot thickens, dear Watson

Jan

[Dolf]

Notice the back on the 4000-range flatbacks is really flat, on these early ones, the backs are slightly uneven, the plot thickens, dear Watson

Jan

Jan,

Comparing my older #4450 with two others recently arrived (pics below) with lower S/Ns (1500 and 1806) I honestely am not that sure that the difference is on the reverse being more flat on higher S/Ns and more concave on lower S/Ns! If there is a difference there it's indeed so slight that my eyes can't seem to see it!

In fact, if comparing both obverses side by side, it even seems that the one of my #4450 is slightely more curved than the lower S/Ns shown below!

What you mean by "...the plot thickens..." ? Can't comment on this one as I can't understand what you mean by that.

The differences I could find so far are:

- the weight

- the blue enamel on the obverse

- the material they are made of

About the weight, my #4450 posted above some time ago has 19.80gr.

Both the other two with lower S/Ns shown below are lighter (exact weight below).

Now, about the blue enamel, this is not an easy one to explain, anyway, on my #4450, the blue enamel is pretty different from all the others. It looks brighter, and of a different shade, but most of all it seems as if the enamel was covered by a thin skin of varnish. On the other two below, the blue enamel is exactly the same as usually seen on the J 02 mirror reverse, see what I mean? The blue on my #4450 looks like gloss, on the others it looks more mat. At least for me maybe because I can compare both in person, this is even visible if comparing the pics of the obverse of #4450 posted above and the others.

As for the material they are made of, these lower S/Ns are probably made from a lighter metal, either not silver (supposing the higher S/Ns are made of silver) or a different kind of silver!

Guys, if more members have both these variations please post your comments, opinions, etc

This is just the result of my own observations,

Dolf

PS: Just noticed that the blue enamel of my #4450 is closer to the blue enamel on those J 03 Badges

Edited April 12, 2006 by Dolf

[Dolf]

J 02 Flatback, S/N 1500 (at 6 o'clock as usual, at least as my #4450 and most of those I've seen for sale).

Weight: 14,20gr

Obverse:

Dolf