Mongolia herder badges ...

[Dolf]

I love my flock . . . . . . am I Welsh??

I really like the flock idea.

Here is my own flock Am I a Herdsman?

Dolf

Edited May 24, 2006 by Dolf

[Dolf]

And another flock, this one (except one J 03 on hold for our dear Doc) looking for a loving home

Dolf

[Riley1965]

Dolf,

You and Ed are Certified Herdsmen !!!

Doc

[Dolf]

Dolf,

You and Ed are Certified Herdsmen !!!

Doc

Mike,

So it seems

Dolf

[Ed_Haynes]

Mike,

So it seems

Dolf

A distinguished herdsman, for sure, Dolf!

[Ed_Haynes]

Type 1, var 2?

Engraved numbering on reverse (not an integral part of the badge). This #396.

So, may we now propose for these badges:

Type 1.1 (Mongol legend, crude construction, mirror reverse, integral number) - Low 9/High 399

Type 1.2 (Mongol legend, crude construction, mirror reverse, engraved number) - Low 396/High 3??

Type 2.1.1 (Mongol legend, mirror reverse, serial number at 7 o'clock) - Low 32/High 4100

Type 2.1.2 (Mongol legend, mirror reverse, serial number at 10 o'clock) - Low 484/High 496

Type 2.2.1 (Mongol legend, flat revrse, silvered brass) - Low 1128/High 1958

Type 2.2.2 (Mongol legend, flat revrse, silver) - Low 4586/High ???

Type 3 (Cyrillic Legend, unnumbered)

Much to do, as usual?

Bad image of 1.2, sorry.

[Ed_Haynes]

With a lot (a LOT) of help from JC (fjcp), here is an updated effort at understanding these delightful little things.

Type 1.1 (Mongol legend, crude construction, mirror reverse, integral number) - Low 9/High 380

Type 1.2 (Mongol legend, crude construction, mirror reverse, engraved number) - Low 396/High 399

Type 2.1.1 (Mongol legend, mirror reverse, serial number at 10 o'clock) - Low 32/High 496

Type 2.1.2 (Mongol legend, mirror reverse, serial number at 7 o'clock) - Low 911/High 4100

Type 2.2.1 (Mongol legend, flat reverse, silvered brass, serial number at 6 o'clock) - Low 1128/High 1958

Type 2.2.2 (Mongol legend, flat reverse, silvered brass, serial number at 8 o'clock) - Low 865/High1806

Type 2.2.3(Mongol legend, flat reverse, silver) - Low 4400/High 4586

Type 3 (Cyrillic Legend, unnumbered)

Comments, PLEASE!!!

As we get to see some documents, we may be able to get some dates overlaid onto this?

[fjcp]

Thanks for the acknowledgment Ed, just doing my bit.

We should really be thanking you for your contribution, which has been invaluable.

Now back to the topic at hand.

Here are the three known variations of the flatback J02 herders badge.

The first two are the silvered brass ones and take note of the enamel and quality differences between them and the third all silver badge.

Serial# 865 16g

Serial# 1507 16g

serial# 4400 19.1g

JC

Edited July 8, 2006 by fjcp

[Vatjan]

Here's a doc for a type 1

[Vatjan]

and one for a type 3

[Ed_Haynes]

Thanks for posting these documents, Jan!

[Vatjan]

I hate being the bearer of bad news, but I'm afraid there are even more subdivisions.

I have three different Type 2.1.2 (Mongol legend, mirror reverse, serial number at 7 o'clock)

On the left n? 1236: only 13 grams, I believe it is silver

in the middle n? 3450, 16 gr; definitely silverplated bronze, the silverplating has xorn off and the base metal shines through

on the right n? 3519, 19 gr, might be silver, though I'm not sure, see the different more transparent blue enamel.

I'm sorry

[Vatjan]

close-up on 3450 and 3519

[Ed_Haynes]

Fascinating. And something to ponder.

I am, however, uncertain how far down the road of varieties and sub-varieties to go, unless we can get discrete serial number (and date?) blocks. (These are some way off for now.) When do types and varieties give way to simple variation in the manufacturing and numbering process? What is real is what is "noise"? When does this process become pedantic and anal-compulsive?

Obviously we don't know yet. But some day we may build enough examples on this forum to allow us to decide where these lines fall.

As I said, much to ponder, Jan! Thanks for making life difficult. I love it. I really do!

Edited July 9, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[fjcp]

I hate being the bearer of bad news, but I'm afraid there are even more subdivisions.

I have three different Type 2.1.2 (Mongol legend, mirror reverse, serial number at 7 o'clock)

On the left n? 1236: only 13 grams, I believe it is silver

in the middle n? 3450, 16 gr; definitely silverplated bronze, the silverplating has xorn off and the base metal shines through

on the right n? 3519, 19 gr, might be silver, though I'm not sure, see the different more transparent blue enamel.

I'm sorry

The more the merrier!!! I wouldn't mind having 100 of these

Your 3450 matches in appearance and weight (+-.1g) to my 3444 and 3471 so that's fine.

The enamel on 3519 looks like the enamel on the solid silver flat backs (type 2.2.3) so that's certainly interesting. I'm just curious about the first one......13g seems awfully light for it to be silver.

Jan could you please post some pictures of the reverse?

[Bob]

Jan - isn't it about time you post a nice overview pic of your ENTIRE Mongolian collection (awards, docs, etc.)?

Between you, FJCP and myself we probably cover about 99% of the Mongolian awards in the hands of "lowland countries" nationals

[Vatjan]

Well, 99% of my collection is here, no very rare or expensive pieces though.

Have a few nice items comming my way soon.

I'll make some shots of my award docs, tomorrow.

The herder T1 doc is unfortunately not in my collection, the price was a bit steep, although I kind of regret not buying it now, since I've never seen a second.

[Bob]

With a lot (a LOT) of help from JC (fjcp), here is an updated effort at understanding these delightful little things.

Type 1.1 (Mongol legend, crude construction, mirror reverse, integral number) - Low 9/High 380

Type 1.2 (Mongol legend, crude construction, mirror reverse, engraved number) - Low 396/High 399

Let me help: I have a type 1.1 with serial number 393 - getting VERY close now:)

[fjcp]

Jan - isn't it about time you post a nice overview pic of your ENTIRE Mongolian collection (awards, docs, etc.)?

Between you, FJCP and myself we probably cover about 99% of the Mongolian awards in the hands of "lowland countries" nationals

You may be right!! but I think you may have 70% all by yourself though Bob!

As you posted in the "hero star" thread I'm still looking for a bunch of stuff myself I just can't seem to get the kind of items from my "sources" like I could 6 months ago. The Choibalsan state prize was a missed opportunity for sure, great price too. I'm still kicking myself for that one.

[Bob]

You may be right!! but I think you may have 70% all by yourself though Bob!

As you posted in the "hero star" thread I'm still looking for a bunch of stuff myself I just can't seem to get the kind of items from my "sources" like I could 6 months ago. The Choibalsan state prize was a missed opportunity for sure, great price too. I'm still kicking myself for that one.

Supply is a bit strange... a tremendous flow of great new items on Alexei's site (especially a "diarrhea" ORCB's!) and at reasonable prices... but for me to simply find a bronze grade Udarnik has proven close to impossible sofar.

Either we are all kidding ourselves when we are kicking ourselves that we didn't buy item such and such because supply will continue, or this flux of items will end in the near future and it will then become virtually impossible, at reasonable prices, to fill the "gaps".

It's a bit like the boardgame risk... everybody's scrambling for their part of the pie:)

Note... if you are looking for some rare pieces, I can point you to a good direction (e.g. first type Polar Star for sale... at a hefty price tag though). Us Dutchies need to help each other out:)

[Vatjan]

Posted my docs here

And here are the reverses of the distinguished herder badges

[Vatjan]

Either we are all kidding ourselves when we are kicking ourselves that we didn't buy item such and such because supply will continue, or this flux of items will end in the near future and it will then become virtually impossible, at reasonable prices, to fill the "gaps".

I don't know if prices will continu to rise or not, that'll depend on how many madmen are out there that lust after these goodies , but I'm sure supplies will dry up before long.

All of those first type orders were issued 80 years ago, in a country of nomads, most of these orders were returned to the state and melted down, they were all issued in small numbers, I guarantee not many survive, there are bound to be a few more that will come out of the country, but the ones you'll be buying (if you can afford them) in a couple of years will be coming out of collections and not from a Mongolian source.

Moreover, we're still seeing a lot of items that came from the state mint, especially these ORCB's and T1 herders, they are plentyful, and there are probably enough to go round for all collector's that are willing to invest, now or in the years to come. But there were other items not quite as plentyful some 50 herder T3's, those are bound to become scarce in a couple of years. Some items did not figure in the state sale, bronze udarnik for example, they were scarce and will become increasingly so.

I was just recently in Mongolia, all the items I brought back came from the same sources, I buy from through the internet, don't even believe for a second that you can buy whatever you are looking for on every streetcorner.

Well, just my 2 tugriks

Jan

Edited July 10, 2006 by vatjan

[Dolf]

Posted my docs here

And here are the reverses of the distinguished herder badges

Jan,

I believe fjcp was asking for the reverses of flatback herder Badges, not the mirror-reverse type.

Jan could you please post some pictures of the reverse?

Dolf

Edited July 10, 2006 by Dolf

[fjcp]

Jan,

I believe fjcp was asking for the reverses of flatback herder Badges, not the mirror-reverse type.

Dolf

Thanks for trying to help Dolf, but it was in fact the mirror reverse ones I was hoping to see.

Jan mentioned that the first of the three, #1236 was a solid silver mirror reverse badge. I was hoping to see something that would distinguish it from the others but there isn't anything obvious that I can see...

The mystery continues.

JC

[Dolf]

Thanks for trying to help Dolf, but it was in fact the mirror reverse ones I was hoping to see.

Jan mentioned that the first of the three, #1236 was a solid silver mirror reverse badge. I was hoping to see something that would distinguish it from the others but there isn't anything obvious that I can see...

The mystery continues.

JC

Sorry, I guess I missed that detail you mention on Jan's post and misunderstood the whole thing, as you were showing and talking about your different flatback types/variations!

As for solid silver and silverplated variations I confess I was never able to really detect the differences between them either!

Dolf

Edited July 10, 2006 by Dolf