Mongolia herder badges ...

[Vatjan]

Thanks for trying to help Dolf, but it was in fact the mirror reverse ones I was hoping to see.

Jan mentioned that the first of the three, #1236 was a solid silver mirror reverse badge. I was hoping to see something that would distinguish it from the others but there isn't anything obvious that I can see...

The mystery continues.

JC

I said I supposed it was silver, I'm not sure, it looks like silver not like silverplating, and the fact that it weighs only 13 gr makes me think likewise. From my experience with belgian orders, I know that golden ordres are supposed to be very heavy because of the weight of the gold, but usually are very light because they are produced very thinly, not using as much (precious) metal as one would use for a "normal" order. I guess the same could apply for these badges, made in real silver : order very thin very light, not use too much silver, these badges are probably wartime, precious metals were scarce. Once they started using bronze, who gives a ***, bronze is cheap, heavier badge, later on the economy is "blooming" back to silver, nobody cares, it's a matter of propaganda, silver badges look better than bronze ones.

My 2 Tugriks, What do you guys think?

[Dolf]

Jan,

The same piece, one of these Herder Badges for instance, made in solid silver, would it be lighter or heavier than the same Badge made in bronze and silverplated? And what about one made in solid bronze?

I have not the slightest idea so that's why I'm asking.

If some of the members know the weights of these materials maybe that could help, with the weights we have for these Badges.

Dolf

[Ed_Haynes]

As for solid silver and silverplated variations I confess I was never able to really detect the differences between them either!

All you need to do is squint (with a magnifying lens?) at the numbering. See if it cuts into brass/bronze or silver the internal composition is made clear.

Edited July 11, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[fjcp]

I'm not even sure what these are made of, both bronze and brass are possible.

Fortunately they weigh about the same.

I looked up some info about the various metals and both bronze and brass weigh +/- 8500 KG per cubic meter. Silver weighs about 10500 kg/cu.m so that means that silver is 23.5% heavier than both Brass and bronze.

So all other things being equal a 16g brass/bronze badge should weigh just under 20g if it were to be made of silver...

[Dolf]

All you need to do is squint (with a magnifying lens?) at the numbering. See if it cuts into brass/bronze or silver the internal composition is made clear.

Ed,

Thanks for the hint.

Ok, I used a magnifying lens with a light incorporated.

In 3 of the Badges posted elsewhere on this thread (m-r #3344 + m-r #3345 + f-b #1806) inside the numbers the color seems a bit yellow (despite my lack of knowledge on the subject my intuition would make me to say brass or bronze); on the other Badge (f-b #4450) the inside of the numbers is completely different, very dark, almost black. I'd say this is because of the wear, dirt, whatever. I don't want to mess with these pieces by scratching the inside of one of the numbers to confirm, but based on my intuition (and also on the weight, please see next Post) I'd say silver on this case.

Dolf

[Dolf]

I'm not even sure what these are made of, both bronze and brass are possible.

Fortunately they weigh about the same.

I looked up some info about the various metals and both bronze and brass weigh +/- 8500 KG per cubic meter. Silver weighs about 10500 kg/cu.m so that means that silver is 23.5% heavier than both Brass and bronze.

So all other things being equal a 16g brass/bronze badge should weigh just under 20g if it were to be made of silver...

fjcp,

Thanks for the research.

Ok, I weighted all four J 02 Herder Badges I currently have, two m-r (mirror-reverse) and two f-b (flatback).

Weights of both f-b, #1806 (Posts #52 and #53) and #4450 (Posts #42 and #43), as mentioned before are respectively 15,60gr and 19,80gr.

Now I also weighted my two m-r, pics also posted above.

#3344 (Posts #38 and #39) ? 16,80gr

#3345 (Posts #40 and #41) ? 16,15gr

As mentioned on my previous Post, based on the weight and the observation Ed suggested, I guess these two m-r should probably be silverplated. As well as one of the f-b, #1806; the other f-b, #4450 should probably be solid silver.

Just my two cents,

Dolf

PS: I don't owe anymore another f-b I posted above, #1500, which I weighted while in my possession, 14,20gr, but I don't know how it looks inside the numbers.

Mike, maybe you could help with this.

Edited July 11, 2006 by Dolf

[Ed_Haynes]

Guess I need to find a good way to weigh my badges too . . . ???

My often-tolerant wife balks at being asked to take too many "snouts" to weigh on her super-sensitive biological research scale.

But this is close to being

[Dolf]

Guess I need to find a good way to weigh my badges too . . . ???

My often-tolerant wife balks at being asked to take too many "snouts" to weigh on her super-sensitive biological research scale.

But this is close to being

LOL...

Yeah, guess she's right

Time you get your own scale

Dolf

[Vatjan]

I'm not even sure what these are made of, both bronze and brass are possible.

Fortunately they weigh about the same.

I looked up some info about the various metals and both bronze and brass weigh +/- 8500 KG per cubic meter. Silver weighs about 10500 kg/cu.m so that means that silver is 23.5% heavier than both Brass and bronze.

So all other things being equal a 16g brass/bronze badge should weigh just under 20g if it were to be made of silver...

Yes, silver is definitely the heavier of the 2 materials, but also the more expensive.

What I tried to explain in my previous post is that although silver is heavier, the badge might be less heavy because they will make thinner badges because of the cost of using solid silver.

badge 1236 is 1,4 mm thick

badge 3450 is 1,7 mm thick

[fjcp]

I hate being the bearer of bad news, but I'm afraid there are even more subdivisions.

I have three different Type 2.1.2 (Mongol legend, mirror reverse, serial number at 7 o'clock)

On the left n? 1236: only 13 grams, I believe it is silver

in the middle n? 3450, 16 gr; definitely silverplated bronze, the silverplating has xorn off and the base metal shines through

on the right n? 3519, 19 gr, might be silver, though I'm not sure, see the different more transparent blue enamel.

I'm sorry

I just got in # 3527 and it is just like the one you have.

It has the much darker enamel and it also weighs 19g. I'm also 100% sure it is solid silver ok 99%...

Its weight is an indicator, but as Ed suggested, the engraved numbers show a pure silver interior which differs greatly from the obviously golden colour found on most of these badges.

Woohoo I just love all these variations, however small the differences. It's just a convenient excuse for me to collect more and more!!!!

Edited July 25, 2006 by fjcp

[fjcp]

reverse #3527

[Bob]

Let me add some weight to this discussion

- flatback nr 1800 = 15.2gr

- non-flat, dark reverse nr 534 = 15.2gr

- non-flat, dark reverse nr 791 = 16.0gr

- non-flat, silvery reverse nr 3283 = 16.4gr

- non-flat, silvery reverse nr 3382 = 14.7gr

Note: I can highly recommend a nice little Tanita scale (model 1479V) I purchased via eBay recently. Small, weighs up to 120gr with 0.1gr precision.

Have fun herding your flock!

[fjcp]

Thanks for the info Bob, the more info the better!!

Just a quick question about two of the badges you mentioned.

Where are the serial numbers on badges #534 and #791 located? are they at the 7 or at the 10 o'clock position?

Thanks.

JC

[Bob]

Thanks for the info Bob, the more info the better!!

Just a quick question about two of the badges you mentioned.

Where are the serial numbers on badges #534 and #791 located? are they at the 7 or at the 10 o'clock position?

Thanks.

JC

Both at 7

[Ed_Haynes]

Based on recent discussions, musings, and observations, may I suggest the following (more complex) categorization of our snouts:

Type 1.1 (Mongol legend, crude construction, mirror reverse, integral number) - Low = 9/High = 393

Type 1.2 (Mongol legend, crude construction, mirror reverse, engraved number) - Low = 396/High = 399

Type 2.1.1 (Mongol legend, mirror reverse, serial number at 10 o?clock) - Low = 32/High = 496

Type 2.1.2 (Mongol legend, mirror reverse, serial number at 7 o?clock) - Low = 221/High = 4100

Type 2.2.1 (Mongol legend, flat reverse, silvered brass, serial number at 8 o?clock) - Low = 865/High = 1806

Type 2.2.2 (Mongol legend, flat reverse, silvered brass, serial number at 6 o?clock) - Low = 1124/

High = 1958

Type 2.2.3 (Mongol legend, flat reverse, silver) - Low = 4164/High = 4586

Type 3 (Cyrillic legend, unnumbered)

When I have a chance, I shall try weighing my specimens on MY NEW SCALE. (You will soon come to hate the fellow forumites who urged me and advised me in getting this scale!)

[Ed_Haynes]

Some weights, combining Jan's ("J"), Dolf's ("D"), "FJCP"'s ("F"), Bob's ("B") and mine ("E"). More to come, please . . . ???

Type 1.1 (Mongol legend, crude construction, mirror reverse, integral number) - Low = 9/High = 393

E ? 155 = 13.80 g

E ? 380 = 12.95 g

Type 1.2 (Mongol legend, crude construction, mirror reverse, engraved number) - Low = 396/High = 399

E - 396 = 11.35 g

Type 2.1.1 (Mongol legend, mirror reverse, serial number at 10 o?clock) - Low = 32/High = 496

???

Type 2.1.2 (Mongol legend, mirror reverse, serial number at 7 o?clock) - Low = 221/High = 4100

B - 534 = 15.2 g

B - 791 = 16.0 g

F - 865 = 16 g

J - 1236 = 13 g

F - 1507 = 16 g

E ? 2932 = 16.65 g

E ? 2949 = 16.40 g

E ? 3017 = 15.40 g

E ? 3035 = 13.50 g

B - 3283 = 16.4 g

D - 3344 = 16.80 g

D - 3345 = 16.15 g

B - 3382 = 14.7 g

J - 3450 = 16 g

J - 3519 = 19 g

F - 3537 = 19 g

Type 2.2.1 (Mongol legend, flat reverse, silvered brass, serial number at 8 o?clock) - Low = 865/High = 1806

???

Type 2.2.2 (Mongol legend, flat reverse, silvered brass, serial number at 6 o?clock) - Low = 1124/High = 1958

E ? 1430 = 16.50 g

B - 1800 = 15.2 g

Type 2.2.3 (Mongol legend, flat reverse, silver) - Low = 4164/High = 4586

F - 4400 = 19.1 g

E ? 4546 = 20.25 g

Type 3 (Cyrillic legend, unnumbered)

E ? 27.30 g

E ? 28.55 g

Edited August 5, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Bob]

344 - 16.3gr

393 - 14.7gr

With these weights, I think we're on a wild goose chase for these very early awards... just too much chance of slight variations (e.g. manufacturing or shortening of the screw).

[Ed_Haynes]

344 - 16.3gr

393 - 14.7gr

With these weights, I think we're on a wild goose chase for these very early awards... just too much chance of slight variations (e.g. manufacturing or shortening of the screw).

Agreed, except for the difference between the flat-back bronze and silver.

The screw-post shortening is surely an issue for all Mongolian awards, as is the random variation in manufacturing (some of which we may otherwise want to see as a sub-sub-variety -- colours of enamel and all).

But this is something we'd never know until we knew it.

[Ed_Haynes]

Assuming we see these as the two ends of the series, it was sure a long way to fall in design terms. As the Wise Old Man said, "what a long strange trip its been".

See: http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=10221&st=17

[fjcp]

Finally a little something to add to this thread.

An award document for a J03 from Choibalsan Province renamed Dornod in '63. Awarded to a great "milker".

I've been translating it and with the exception of a few words I've got a very complete translation, and I'll be posting that in the next day or two.

I must say I like the look of Jan's Zavhan Province document more than this one but I'm not complaining!!!!

Cheers and enjoy.

JC

[fjcp]

455 litres from 9 cows!!!!

And a special "thank you!!" to my Fiancee for helping me with the hand written cyrillic. Not to hard for her, since she was born no more than a few hundred miles from the Mongolian border near Novosibirsk!

JC

Edited January 18, 2007 by fjcp

[Ed_Haynes]

Some other documents.

This from 2 November 1943 (date preprinted), in bichig and Cyrillic both.

The cover.

[Ed_Haynes]

And the interior spread.

[Ed_Haynes]

While the type has been seen before, I think, here's one from 9 December 1948.

The cover.

[Ed_Haynes]

The first page.

I can't help but wonder if "786" is the badge number.