Chris Boonzaier Posted January 9, 2012 Posted January 9, 2012 I see that the Harald Geissler book was re printed in 2011... And with 1 700 photos and 600 plus pages... I will have to wait to next month to get it, but it sounds like a really big deal.... Does anyone have it? How well are WW1 docs covered? Thanks Chris
Motorhead Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 Some people at the SDA said it's worth the money-but I will have a personal look in it befor I will spend my money.... Micha
hagahr Posted January 10, 2012 Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I wood like to have a peep as well ,,,,,,,buying hmmmmm ? I fear , fore the experienced collectors,buying this book wood not make all to much new info available . hopefully I am wrong ,,,, Edited January 10, 2012 by hagahr
Jim R Posted January 11, 2012 Posted January 11, 2012 I recently seen this book and it is more into the history of the Iron Cross than individual crosses themselves, although there are pictures of some but not all makers. I don't read German but I don't think it is a good reference book for the EK. But I could be wrong. Jim
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 10, 2012 Author Posted February 10, 2012 Years ago I flogged off most of my books. Having decided to concentrate on Documents i did not need a lot of them, so out they went. I kept the Nimmergut EK book, Gordon Williamsons 1939 EK book and as a doc collector the most important... hammelmans book on WW1 EK docs book. Recently I began to rebuy... Bowen, Iron Time, now the new Geissler... I must say, my focaus is just WW1, so I dont need them all... But lets hear what you have, what you cannot do without, .... from 1813-1945... what are the essentials?
Streptile Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 I think this is a decent book. There is a lot of eye candy, and some rare variants. It is like a German "Iron Time." There are also some quite glaring mistakes. I would be happy to post some photos of the pages if anyone has any specific requests.
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 10, 2012 Author Posted February 10, 2012 Hi, Well.... I felt morally obliged to buy it.... I sold my 250 page version for about EUR150 4-5 years ago.... so i can drop the EUR99 for the 650 page version.... I blush to tell I just bought the Bowen book again for EUR35.... I think I got USD150 for mine 6-7 years ago.... But the Bowen book was just a lucky find this week on a used book site....
Robin Lumsden Posted February 10, 2012 Posted February 10, 2012 The Bowen book is the best EK book ever .......................... a child of its time. Vern did REAL research. The good bits in that book outweigh the bad .................. by a LOOOOOOONG way.
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 10, 2012 Author Posted February 10, 2012 The Bowen book is the best EK book ever .......................... a child of its time. Vern did REAL research. The good bits in that book outweigh the bad .................. by a LOOOOOOONG way. I am curious why you think that. Do you mean it is the best book...period. Or the best book because of the amoount of effort went in to it. I agree it is a fantastic achievement, but I want to here the reasons folks like and dislike different books. Best Chris
Robin Lumsden Posted February 11, 2012 Posted February 11, 2012 I am curious why you think that. Do you mean it is the best book...period. Or the best book because of the amoount of effort went in to it. I agree it is a fantastic achievement, but I want to here the reasons folks like and dislike different books. Best Chris It was the product of years ............ and years ............... of searching through archives in Europe and Russia. Many of the original sources Vern Bowen uncovered have been used in most of the other books ever since. He was able to interview many of the old TR vets like Rudel. The presentation of his book was pretty poor .................... because he had to 'self-publish'. But the quality of the content is beyond reproach. OK .............. a few fakes slipped through his net. But he was working in the 1970s and 1980s ................. before the blessed Internet. ;)
Robin Lumsden Posted February 11, 2012 Posted February 11, 2012 I agree Bowen is absolutely superb! Bowen is one of the 'unsung heroes' of this hobby! Most of our colonial cousins have never even heard of him. ;)
Streptile Posted February 11, 2012 Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) Bowen is one of the 'unsung heroes' of this hobby! Most of our colonial cousins have never even heard of him. I don't know, I think Bowen is well known among EK collectors. He has put out a few different versions of his great book: hardcover in slipcase, paperback, and even an expanded edition with photocopies of all the original documents, plus translations of them, that he was able to find on his travels. He hit the pavement for real -- no internet surfing for him. He traveled around to archives and museums, met with vets and collectors, and put together a really superb piece of research. His expanded book is the EK Bible for anyone interested in 1813-1957. I have seen precisely one copy of it in my lifetime. Edited February 11, 2012 by Streptile
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 13, 2012 Author Posted February 13, 2012 It was the product of years ............ and years ............... of searching through archives in Europe and Russia. Many of the original sources Vern Bowen uncovered have been used in most of the other books ever since. He was able to interview many of the old TR vets like Rudel. The presentation of his book was pretty poor .................... because he had to 'self-publish'. But the quality of the content is beyond reproach. OK .............. a few fakes slipped through his net. But he was working in the 1970s and 1980s ................. before the blessed Internet. I largely agree. His effort was superhuman. it suffers because of the quality of the photos, but the amount of Info he put together was fantastic. That there were not MORE errors is astonishing as he was really a pionier, working without a safety net. The Pionier thing is important... The "first guy" to tackle a subject has nothing to support him, he needs to create his work from nothing... and that helps all that follow. So when the first work comes out, the collecting community chews over the errors, and the next guy to bring out a book can correct them... It has been said before, imagine what Bowen could have done if he had all that energy, AND an internet connection!!
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 13, 2012 Author Posted February 13, 2012 Very overlooked is the Nimmergut book "Das Eiserne Kreuz 1813-1957 " It came out after Bowen, and credits him, but i think it is the top one for me in matters concerning pure info. The photos are so bad they are almost useless, and the selection of crosses is pretty random. The book has sections written by different people so it is as if a number of totally unrelated articles have been stuck together... But what makes it important is the information. especially about the kinds of awards. I had leant my copy to someone ages and ages ago and just recently got it back. i had been working on a few theories that I had built up over years of observation, and was happy upon reading the book to see a number of them confirmed. (Should have reread the book much earlier, could have saved myself much thinking time) So, terrible pictures, veeeery dry text... but a mine of information about the dreary technical side.
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 13, 2012 Author Posted February 13, 2012 Hi, A reprint of an older book.... does anyone know if "127 Jahre Eisernes Kreuz" is worth getting? Is there any good info in it or just patriotic blah blah?
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 17, 2012 Author Posted February 17, 2012 I just recieved the new Geissler book. I wont have time to go through in detail till next week, but my first impression is WOW! Just paging through I see an error or two, but that aside, it is for me "THE " general book on the EK... I am very impressed. It seems to be a book based on long years of observation, as opposed to deep research, but that is just my opinion. If I was to have one General book on the EK on my shelf, this would probably be it. Its not tailor made to exactly what I need, and a few of the things shown could IMHO have been left out... but all in all, its great! And for EUR99 its a really good price.
Harrier Posted February 18, 2012 Posted February 18, 2012 Bowen was also the only author to seriously talk with producers such as S&L. His book is an absolute "must have".
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 18, 2012 Author Posted February 18, 2012 I think it is difficult to compare books of the pre internet days to nowdays. It would be a mistake to say people can do a book nowdays just by collecting info they find online... but one thing is for sure.. you can certainly make contact with many people who can help you find the info, and you have the chance to sound out theories and thoughts with a wider range of people than in Pre internet days... To get the Info that Bowen did, all on his lonesome, using letters, telephone, train, plane and automobile is an achievement that would be unlikely be repeated today. An example, I think Iron Time 1 can be classed as "pre Internet" and Iron Time 2 as "internet Era", I have not seen a first edition in ages, but think the Author was able to use the Internet feedback to weed out fakes and get new items that he would otherwise not have had access to. It gives the "2010" Previtera a huge advantage over the "2000" Previtera, if anyone goes back into the archives of the various forums and sees what the level of discussion was back in 2001, compared to today where everyone has info at his fingertips, you can see what an effort it was to get a book together back then. Back in the day, Geissler 1st Version of his book, Previteras, and Gordon Williamsons book on the 1939 Iron Cross, all can hold their heads high for what they achieved, they were all done before folks could take advantage of the net and can still hold their own today. I would be curious as to how much use Geissler made of Online contacts to get his second edition out. It apparently has a number of errors in the 3rd Reich sections, but I am not really up on those. His list of people credited in the back seem to be largely "old timers" including people like Angolia... It is a great book, I hope to get some time this weekend to really get into it.
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 19, 2012 Author Posted February 19, 2012 "Iron" Roland gave me a heads up about the Geissler Book. I really like the WW1 part, but it seems the Higher grade WW2 stuff needs to be checked before you use it as a reference. I assume they were not deliberate errors. The one error I found in Imperial is in an area that things are pretty grey anyway. Those in the WW2 area could maybe have been avoided. Errors in books are often acceptable and understandable IMHO, especially in the "Pre Internet" days. Everyone is cleverer 10 years later. Best Chris
Harrier Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 Errors in books are often acceptable and understandable IMHO, especially in the "Pre Internet" days. Everyone is cleverer 10 years later. Best Chris At least everyone thinks they are more clever. :unsure:
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 19, 2012 Author Posted February 19, 2012 At least everyone thinks they are more clever. Its 50/50... If you are the 10th guy to bring out a book on a subject, then you have 9 books to build your work on, can analyse all the errors made and benefit from all the comments posted about those books... You may not be more clever, but you should have benefited to the point where you dont need to make the same mistakes. Unfortunately there are those who dis the 1st guy for having made errors... Its kind of like the first guy being the Wright Brothers, and the 10th Guy being an F16... then you have some online keyboard commando going... "Hey, look at the old thing the Wright brothers made, why didnt they just make a jet??". You cannot apply what we "know" in 2012 to a book that came out in 2007, or 2002, or 1997... IMHO "The EK Books" have all been done by men with Noble intentions, There are errors, but not Malicious ones. This cannot be said for all collecting areas unfortunately. Best Chris
Chris Boonzaier Posted February 19, 2012 Author Posted February 19, 2012 Hmmmm... seems I am the only one with any book ... :-) I was looking through Geissler this morning while defending myself against the kiddies... it seems to have the "Herman Goering Grosskreuz" document in a dedicated section. I have not been following it, but this seems to be a disputed piece? Hardin is amongst the credits at the back. Seems also to be some rather questionable diamond and RK stuff. As i am not in the market for that its no big deal, the WW1 section is still good, but I would put a big caveat on this book for higher end WW2. Best Chris
Harrier Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 I also have the Geissler book here. He makes no reference to Dietrich Maerz' book or the controversy surrounding Type "B" RK's from S&L, continuing (as he did before in his earlier book) to consider them simply a separate type produced wartime by S&L, without getting into postwar activities. He also shows photos of the Hermann Goering award cassette for the Grand Cross (which I would suppose come from Wolfe/Hardin, who were marketing the same), with no mention of the controversey regarding its originality, something "whispered about" for some time, but which has become more "public" in the last few months because of a certain controversial website. Aside from these areas (and I do think the absence of any reference to Maerz' work is surprising), I hope someone can point out the specific "problem areas" in the areas of his book dealing with RK's (and higher awards), rather than just characterizing the book as questionable in those areas. That would certainly assist collectors.
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