China Incident Commemorative Medal

[JapanX]

This piece looks familiar

:)

[fukuoka]

yes, very astute!

[JapanX]

Hope you don`t mind Rich (it looks like posting sometimes brings luck )

Obverse

[JapanX]

Reverse

[fukuoka]

My piece sold for $361.00. So, to show how overpriced John's was--and how some ebay buyers are just crazy--the other buyer paid over $1000 for a ribbon. The mind boggles...

Granted, my medal was a bit less nice than the other, but ...! $1000 for a ribbon!

[JapanX]

So, to show how overpriced John's was ...

Or how your's piece was underpriced

P.S. Looks like posting indeed brings luck ... But not always to the seller :whistle:

[fukuoka]

Well, I think the price mine sold at was near the fair value. I have no complaints. I am not the best businessman, as many may have noticed...

[JapanX]

I am not the best businessman, as many may have noticed...

They called him Rich-philanthropist :lol:

[fukuoka]

Well, I wouldn't say that. Just business-ignorant, I guess.

[Gunjinantiques]

My piece sold for $361.00. So, to show how overpriced John's was--and how some ebay buyers are just crazy--the other buyer paid over $1000 for a ribbon. The mind boggles...

Granted, my medal was a bit less nice than the other, but ...! $1000 for a ribbon!

I don't think mine was overpriced considering how pristine it was. The buyer picked it up in Kyoto and loves it. The price he'll soon forget, but he'll always have a rare medal that's about as nice as you'll ever hope to find. All parties were happy.

[fukuoka]

Oh, come on, John. This isn't an item description here. We are fellow collectors/dealers. No need for hyperbole.

The other party was happy because he/she didn't know how much the market value is.

[Gunjinantiques]

It just seems a little petty to go on about the price and the new owner. The guy is a serious collector and a gentleman and you speak about him as if he was a newbie. And since when is simple fact hypebole?

[JapanX]

Come on guys!

[fukuoka]

I'm not being petty on prices. I am merely stating what the market is for these medals and discussing it. You priced your medal high and sold it. I priced mine at 99 cents and sold it for a much lower price than yours. That is all there is to it--and pointing out price differences and talking about medals and associated issues is part of this forum, right? And observing that a medal went for $1000 more than another one is certainly something that medal collectors are interested in now and in the future, I imagine. Wondering why there was such a huge difference is indeed worthy of discussion. Condition and the presence of a ribbon were noted.

And bringing up the average selling price of a medal is also common. I know that you do not contribute to these discussions much so perhaps you don't know how they work. But since you posted a comment (when your auction was successful), I am assuming that you've read them from time to time.

Again, congrats on your sale. I mentioned that before. You have the business acumen to notice when a medal can sell at a high price. I tip my hat to you.

Edited July 29, 2012 by fukuoka

[Gunjinantiques]

You wrote, "My piece sold for $361.00. So, to show how overpriced John's was--and how some ebay buyers are just crazy--the other buyer paid over $1000 for a ribbon. The mind boggles...

Granted, my medal was a bit less nice than the other, but ...! $1000 for a ribbon!"

Is this normal discourse for this forum? If it is, then I'll visit less often.

Just so we're all clear, let's compare what you keep going on about:

Mine: http://www.ebay.com/itm/VERY-RARE-WWII-ERA-JAPANESE-1942-CHINA-INCIDENT-CHINESE-COLLABORATOR-WAR-MEDAL-/120937717528?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c28731f18

Yours: http://www.ebay.com/itm/VERY-RARE-WWII-ERA-JAPANESE-1942-CHINA-INCIDENT-CHINESE-COLLABORATOR-WAR-MEDAL-/360475134965?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53edfe0bf5

Try not to get them confused as the titles are exactly the same for some reason.

[Dieter3]

I don't think there was any sort of business skill or savy involved in any of this. Price low - it's gonna sell. Price high - it may or may not sell, or you sit on it for awhile, but hey - ultimately you might score that deal! It all depends on what you're willing to move an item for and how quickly you need or want the cash!

Something is worth what somebody is willing to pay for it. I'm willing to pay the average, between 50,000-60,000 yen (based on my observations of the past few years) because I'm not swimming in cash. If I was, sure, I'd have bought John's medal for $1500 too! But I can't, I must seek better value. Was it worth the $1500? Sure! To that buyer. Worth $1500 to me? Not at this time. Value is highly subjective. I say more power to a seller that can bring top dollar, business is business. I can begrudge no buyer or seller.

[Gunjinantiques]

This just seems to be a case of sour grapes. First my title was copied and pasted. Second, the person that can't stop berating my listing or the buyer writes a description like this:

"This auction: An official medal from WW2 Japan. This is the extra rare 1942 China War Commemorative Medal. Just last week a ribboned example sold for $1499 Ebay item number (120937717528), so that will give you an idea of the scarcity. NO RIBBON OR CASE. (Actually, no case is known to exist.)Very few minted; no record of them ever having been awarded. It is one of the rarest of all Japanese medals, and it would be a great edition to any medal collection. Established in September 1942 and abolished in 1945."

Hmmm, seems like the price that mine sold for was used to justify how buyers should bid a lot for this auction. It didn't seem to bother him when it suited his cause. Seller ultimately wasn't happy with ending price so jumps on here and let's us all have it. This isn't educational discourse, this is sour grapes and I was in the cross hairs. Or is this just hyperbole too?

[Aurora]

I would like to start with my apologies. I have no the right to interrupt this duel but I would express some thoughts. Why have we to decide who is the best dealer? My grandfather usually told me:"Remember, if it is yellow it is not necessarily gold... and remember again, the only friend you have is in your wallet..."

When I graduated summa cum laude in Economics my professor ( he also worked as adviser for our Central Bank) said me these words:" You have to learn this important lesson, the word 'economy' doesn't mean science..."

I didn't understand those words... but I think I have learned the lesson now:

- men are not completely rational;

- we have not the right to judge their decisions;

- if you are the best dealer probably you do not need to underline it;

- we should know who has the best knowledge between seller and buyer;

- not all auctions are "genuine" so we should not consider those prices;

- a market can not be based on 2-3 buyers, no matter if they are rich;

- a price is 'strong' when a single buyer cannot modify it with his/her actions.

There is a good way to compare 2 dealers but it usually cannot be used. I don't consider the best dealer the one with higher prices. The best dealer is the guy that will be able to offer a lot of common/ rare items (especially rare ones) for long time. If you can offer them for a loooooong time your competitor will be finally 'defeated'. It's a long way...

If Gunjinantiques can demonstrate to sell other medals like that for the same price he will be considered the best dealer but I am sure that Fukuoka is not a stupid. I always see Fukuoka and Gunjinantiques' auctions... He was simply lucky if he will not be able to repeat this performance.

I have a question. Why did you tell us that your buyer is from Kyoto?

I am always so curious....

[Richard LaTondre]

Gentlemen:

This forum was intended to be used for the discussion of medals, not the selling methodology used on eBay.We all admit that it is mysterious and rare, We are losing sight of our original purpose. An attempt to learn its origin and disposition. We need to find someone that may still be alive and not ashamed of the fact that he was awarded this medal. Is this possible? he would be over 77 years of age! I think that the answer to our mystery award may lie in the imperial vault of the National Diet.

Richard

www.thegoldenkite.com

[fukuoka]

I see I have opened up a can of worms, or perhaps Pandora's box, or maybe just unleashed the wrath of John. To be honest, I meant to do nothing of the sort. I just was pointing out how prices on ebay can be crazy sometimes, and this idea has been pursued with relation to different medals such as the 1931-4 Manchurian Incident medal, etc. I didn't see anyone wetting his pants with anxiety over those. At least, no one wrote and complained how unfair everyone was.

On a separate point, it is strange, John, how you refuse to refer to me by name. You obviously know my ebay ID, you know my website (having bought from me more than once), and since you read this site, you have seen my name more than a few times.

Anyway, not trying to make things bigger, but I'm imagining that John is afraid that the buyer of the medal will see these posts and become dissatisfied. I understand that it would be unsettling. However, we are free to discuss medals (attributes, prices, etc) in order to help others.

As for my 'sour grapes.' Well, I must admit that one reading my posts would assume that I am envious of the high sale price of John's medal. That is completely due to my inability to use language well enough to convey what I am feeling. Actually, I had no expectation that my medal would even come close to that high price. Why should I have thought so? Watching over the years, I have never seen such a medal selling for more than $800 (even a nice one with ribbon), so I was quite sure that mine would never ever exceed even $400. I should have stated that before the auction ended. Expectations are the bane of happiness. I expected almost exactly what I got, so I have no 'sour grapes' feeling at all.

Finally, I must address two important points that John brought up: the use of the same wording for the auction title and the mentioning of his ebay auction in the description. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the same wording, though I doubt the title was original enough for John to claim it as his intellectual property. My thinking was that maybe something in the wording caused someone to pay so much for the medal--or perhaps I was just lazy. It is true that cut and paste is not nice, but it is hardly anything to complain about. (If I had copied the item description, I would say that that is worse.) But still, in light of my previous remarks, I apologize for that and won't do it again.

And the mentioning of the final selling price? I don't see why I shouldn't use that tool to try and get a few more dollars. Don't you link to Wikipedia and other sources in your auctions, John? Gives the buyer some reference, and despite my personal feelings about the selling price of your medal, it was public record and perhaps may become the standard selling price.

Sorry to have caused such a stir.

Cheers,

Rich

[fukuoka]

Gentlemen:

This forum was intended to be used for the discussion of medals, not the selling methodology used on eBay.We all admit that it is mysterious and rare, We are losing sight of our original purpose. An attempt to learn its origin and disposition. We need to find someone that may still be alive and not ashamed of the fact that he was awarded this medal. Is this possible? he would be over 77 years of age! I think that the answer to our mystery award may lie in the imperial vault of the National Diet.

Richard

Richard, I think it is possible that this medal was never awarded. No proof that it was (I.e., an award document) has been seen. No case, even, but recently the wrap surfaced (see posts above).

Cheers,

Rich

[Gunjinantiques]

I see I have opened up a can of worms, or perhaps Pandora's box, or maybe just unleashed the wrath of John. To be honest, I meant to do nothing of the sort. I just was pointing out how prices on ebay can be crazy sometimes, and this idea has been pursued with relation to different medals such as the 1931-4 Manchurian Incident medal, etc. I didn't see anyone wetting his pants with anxiety over those. At least, no one wrote and complained how unfair everyone was.

On a separate point, it is strange, John, how you refuse to refer to me by name. You obviously know my ebay ID, you know my website (having bought from me more than once), and since you read this site, you have seen my name more than a few times.

Anyway, not trying to make things bigger, but I'm imagining that John is afraid that the buyer of the medal will see these posts and become dissatisfied. I understand that it would be unsettling. However, we are free to discuss medals (attributes, prices, etc) in order to help others.

As for my 'sour grapes.' Well, I must admit that one reading my posts would assume that I am envious of the high sale price of John's medal. That is completely due to my inability to use language well enough to convey what I am feeling. Actually, I had no expectation that my medal would even come close to that high price. Why should I have thought so? Watching over the years, I have never seen such a medal selling for more than $800 (even a nice one with ribbon), so I was quite sure that mine would never ever exceed even $400. I should have stated that before the auction ended. Expectations are the bane of happiness. I expected almost exactly what I got, so I have no 'sour grapes' feeling at all.

Finally, I must address two important points that John brought up: the use of the same wording for the auction title and the mentioning of his ebay auction in the description. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the same wording, though I doubt the title was original enough for John to claim it as his intellectual property. My thinking was that maybe something in the wording caused someone to pay so much for the medal--or perhaps I was just lazy. It is true that cut and paste is not nice, but it is hardly anything to complain about. (If I had copied the item description, I would say that that is worse.) But still, in light of my previous remarks, I apologize for that and won't do it again.

And the mentioning of the final selling price? I don't see why I shouldn't use that tool to try and get a few more dollars. Don't you link to Wikipedia and other sources in your auctions, John? Gives the buyer some reference, and despite my personal feelings about the selling price of your medal, it was public record and perhaps may become the standard selling price.

Sorry to have caused such a stir.

Cheers,

Rich

Laughable. You write: "Anyway, not trying to make things bigger, but I'm imagining that John is afraid that the buyer of the medal will see these posts and become dissatisfied. I understand that it would be unsettling."

Why in the world would I be afraid of the buyer seeing these forums? Seriously anyone want to chime in and stick up for Rich on any of his posts about this? All I sense is childish, hypocritcal, back talking rhetoric. There's a difference between a discussion regarding current prices for medals and what you're up.

By the way, the reason why I didn't use your name was that I had forgotten what it was and in lieu of getting it wrong I just didn't write it. And no, I didn't want to bother bother to search for it. It might help if you simply list it on here.

You could have saved some face by simply apologizing for copying my title down to the quotation usage, and trying to use my auction to boost yours when it suited your interest. It was great then, wasn't it?. Hmmm. And I notice how you didn't bother to actually explain to the bidders that the Chinese collaborator story isn't true. You just left that hanging there in the title.

I think we all expected a little more honesty and intergrity from you Rich. We all have lapses in judgement, it's just most of us realize it and apologize for it. You just keep digging a deeper hole every time you respond.

[Dieter3]

Buyers will have to make up their own minds about any given seller and their tactics, and what they are willing to pay. I don't think there is much point in continuing the conversation along this particular track, let's see if we can't get back to the academic line as Richard has suggested!

[Aurora]

I agree with Dieter3 and Richard. Fukuoka has no complaints and I assume his buyer is happy. Gunjinantiques is happy and he told us his buyer is happy. I don't see the problem.

Fukuoka and Gunjinantiques,

you are 2 well-known and reputable dealers, why do you want to offer this poor show?

I am a new member but I think you were good friends. Please stop this useless war.

[Gunjinantiques]

Let's see if Rich is capable of cutting out the snide remarks and venom laced half-hearted apologies. Then we can put this behind us.