EK 1914 1914 EK1 with screwback marked L/12

[Graf]

Dear Members,

I would like to share this 1914 EK1 marked L/12 for Juncker

Because the EK is marked with L/12 I assume it was mace after 1942 when LDo was introduced

I purhesed it from a reputable German Militaria Dealer from Europe as Original and I treat iit as such one.

Recently I showed it to another Dealer in North America, who nearly acussed me that is a Repro.

I have posted picture of it on another Forum, however I will post more detailed ones now.

Please, for your opinion and any info regarding its manifacturing.

Regards

Graf

[Graf]

This is the reverse view

Graf

[Graf]

One more view

Graf

[Graf]

Last one

Graf

[hagahr]

al do 1939 era is not my speciality

but I do see these before

the L12 stamp looks good to me

the frame looks like the known AWS mould in connection with juncker

the core type is a typical AWS core also known in connection with JUncker

the screw and disc device looks llike the typical type known fore the 1939 /45 period

min condition ....

I wood say wauw ,,,,

but sharp closeups wood be nice fore the specialist here , who wood like to see them .

regards kay

Edited April 14, 2012 by hagahr

[speedytop]

Hi Graf,

how can a cross made after 1924 be an original?

The award period was from 1914 to 1924.

Uwe

[Graf]

Hi Uwe,

It is a good pont Thank you.

Yes, the reward period from 1914 to 1924 is corect.

In this particular case "Original" means made by the Maker whose mark is on the EK, not a forgery or fake made in Estonia, China or Pakistan.

It could be said that it is 1914 "genuine reproduction" by Juncker for the WW1 Veterans serving in the Wehrmacht and all other recipients or for display purposes by their families request if the first ones had perished.

This particular one is in the same Group as the other EKs made by WW2 makers like Descler und Sohn and Wilhelm Deumer that are considered as "Original"

Graf

[speedytop]

Hi Graf,

"... that are considered as "Original""

Considered by whom? By the sellers and dealers, looking for a higher price?

"genuine reproduction"

Gosh! What a nice expression!

A "genuine reproduction" could be made in the award period, by authorized makers. It is a not awarded piece, but "considered as Original".

"In this particular case "Original" means made by the Maker whose mark is on the EK, not a forgery or fake made in Estonia, China or Pakistan."

And when there is a maker mark from an Estonian, a Chinese or a Pakistani manufacturer, it is an original?

And when a German maker produced it yesterday, with his mark on it, it is an original?

"... for the WW1 Veterans serving in the Wehrmacht and all other recipients or for display purposes by their families request if the first ones had perished."

Yes, they can buy a copy. Why not! But that makes not an original.

A not original piece can be a copy, a fake or a forgery.

Only a piece, made in the award period by authorized makers, can be an original.

Uwe

[marrauder]

I understand, speedytop, what Graf is asking. And I believe you understand it too. Hagahr understand it even better. So, where is your problem? Bad awakening?

Just open new thread about originals versus private purchases (versus copies) if you think it is needed. Otherwise you are just spolied CD player, like some guys in 57 version forum. Sorry for strong words, but moderators role is not to disgust member - mainly when you still didn´t help him with the question even a bit.

[hagahr]

Hi Graf,

"... that are considered as "Original""

Considered by whom? By the sellers and dealers, looking for a higher price?

"genuine reproduction"

Gosh! What a nice expression!

A "genuine reproduction" could be made in the award period, by authorized makers. It is a not awarded piece, but "considered as Original".

"In this particular case "Original" means made by the Maker whose mark is on the EK, not a forgery or fake made in Estonia, China or Pakistan."

And when there is a maker mark from an Estonian, a Chinese or a Pakistani manufacturer, it is an original?

And when a German maker produced it yesterday, with his mark on it, it is an original?

"... for the WW1 Veterans serving in the Wehrmacht and all other recipients or for display purposes by their families request if the first ones had perished."

Yes, they can buy a copy. Why not! But that makes not an original.

A not original piece can be a copy, a fake or a forgery.

Only a piece, made in the award period by authorized makers, can be an original.

Uwe

well well ,strong words

AWS and Juncker where two auterised makers ,,,,

they produced throu out the two wars .

what ever is comming out off theyre production in those years is original maker produced medals.

with 3 major caregory's (1) WW1 ,(2)period between the wars ,and (3) WW2 ,,,

what you talking about is the first awarded medal .

that is not the question here and a different ( much complexer story ).

and if you want,,, I wood gladly go in to more deeply.

but we need a special thread fore that indeed

as marrauder said

Edited April 14, 2012 by hagahr

[speedytop]

marrauder,

what is your problem?

"... mainly when you still didn´t help him with the question even a bit."

Where is your help?

That is the question: Original versus Repro > "Please, for your opinion ..."

My opinion you can read in post 6 and 8. > Repro! With justification.

And last, Where I'm disgusting?

hagahr,

"what ever is comming out off theyre production in those years is original maker produced medals"

No problem, the crosses produced after 1924 are original AWS or Juncker, but not original 1914 EK's.

"what you talking about is the first awarded medal"

Is there a second award of a 1914 EK after 1924? There is only one award, from 1914 to 1924.

Uwe

[hagahr]

hagahr,

yes !

"what ever is comming out off theyre production in those years is original maker produced medals"

No problem, the crosses produced after 1924 are original AWS or Juncker, but not original 1914 EK's.

sure,,,,, not originaly produced in war time

"what you talking about is the first awarded medal"

Is there a second award of a 1914 EK after 1924? There is only one award, from 1914 to 1924.

the first medal a man gets is what i mean ,the one handed out at rewarding him

that is the pure original maker produced ,original war time ,originaly rewarded medal .

theres no comparing,,,,,throe

the cross you see here is defenately no copy or fake or not original

as this ( production type ) cross had to be presented aproval by the officials before the L12 mark wood be put on it .

making it a approved state medal,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, officially .....

but sure not produced in the 1914/18 war ,but in WW2

Edited April 14, 2012 by hagahr

[Eric Stahlhut]

a very nice cross, and in great condition!

[speedytop]

Yes, a very nice copy (not original), and in great condition!

Uwe

[speedytop]

What is wrong with a good copy?

Everybody can see, that it is not an original, and everybody can see, that it is not a fake/forgery (there are visible differences).

And it is really a good copy.

But please, don't call a copy as an original.

uwe

[speedytop]

"making it a approved state medal,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, officially ....."

Is there an official document, that they had to produce these pieces as original?

I only know, that they had to mark their pieces, originals and copies.

Uwe

[hagahr]

yes there are official rules and documents and laws ,,regulating the copys off original medals in the time 1933/ 1936 /1940

to bad you dont kno about them

but I pass here emediatly

as I do not experiance the tone off this conversation as a tone off gentlemans .

and I fear the conflict is just waiting around the corner ...programed already .

so its best to pass here

and declare youre right in all you say and taking my words back

regards kay

[speedytop]

Hi haghar,

"regulating the copys off original medals"

I'm asking especially for regulations of the production of 1914 EK in WW II.

But, as you write it: regulating the copies !!!!

LDO regulations 1941:

"Diese können von den Firmen, die eine Genehmigung des Präsidialkanzlei des Führers zur Herstellung von Nachbildungen staatlicher Orden und Ehrenzeichen für den privaten Handel besitzen,von der Firma C.E.Junker,Berlin SW 68, Alte Jakobsstr.13 bezogen werden."

Nachbildung: imitation, replica, duplicate, copy, reproduction, replication

"... as I do not experiance the tone off this conversation as a tone off gentlemans"

Not to be of your opinion, is equivalent to "not be a tone of gentlemen"?

Uwe

[hagahr]

so these are all fake ? imitation, replica, duplicate, copy, reproduction, replication

Edited April 14, 2012 by hagahr

[hagahr]

next

[hagahr]

pricelist

off the,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Nachbildung: imitation, replica, duplicate, copy, reproduction, replication

[speedytop]

No fakes!

A mixture of originals and not originals (copies).

Uwe

[hagahr]

a mixture ?

how long until the gestapo wood make an end to that you wood think ?

1941 by the way

Edited April 14, 2012 by hagahr

[hagahr]

and Maybauer was selling Juncker crosses in 1941 privately ?

Edited April 14, 2012 by hagahr

[speedytop]

Who say, that the Kleiderkasse sold not authorized pieces, as "Nachbildung" > copy?

Where is written, that this is also meant for a 1914 EK? Do you really think and believe, that a 1914 EK need a "Mustergenehmigung", more than seventeen years after the award period?

§18 is for the licensing (Zulassung), the Kleiderkasse had the licensing.

The remark "Gesetz ... vom 19. Mai 1933" is against the sense of the dignity of the symbols. That is not a problem for the Kleiderkasse.

No Gestape for (against) copies.

"and Maybauer was selling Juncker crosses in 1941 privately?"

Excuse me, what is meant here? Where is here a connection to a 1914 EK?

Uwe