JapanX Posted September 3, 2012 Author Share Posted September 3, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted September 3, 2012 Author Share Posted September 3, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted September 3, 2012 Author Share Posted September 3, 2012 Now let`s compare central medallions of these two 2nd class sets Pieter piece is on the left. Breast star medallions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted September 3, 2012 Author Share Posted September 3, 2012 Badge medallions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted September 3, 2012 Author Share Posted September 3, 2012 Badge reverse medallions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted September 3, 2012 Author Share Posted September 3, 2012 Tigers are different, but reverse medallions look absolutely identical Is anyone familiar with this type? Pieter Yep Regards, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard LaTondre Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 Hello Nick, I knew we would get some great input from you. Another question about our 'Tiger' has arisen. The first produced striped tiger portrays a benign somewhat cherubic tiger sitting in a field of green grass. Let us assume that this first tiger was made at Lao TienLie's work shop. He was the master in enamels. Let us say he was commissioned to produce 100 awards in the niine grades, This would mean his shop produced 800 medallions of cloisonne depicting a tiger sitting in a field of grass looking off to his left.. I am intentionally leaving the ninth class out of this illustration as it appears to have a different tiger pose on the obverse which we will discuss later (if we haven't already bored our fellow collectors to death). I don't believe that he painstakingly took up his paint brush and by himself painted 800 tiger medallions, So he must have had a contingent of artists to help perform this task. What were the guidelines? Did he say "All of the tigers will have their tail raised and on this tail there will be 10 stripes." This was accomplished in the days prior to any type of photographic reproduction. So how did they do it? How did they maintain a semblance of uniformity? I have some ideas as to how this may have been accomplished. In all the years that the tiger was manufactured, many variations naturally occured. How would one identify a fake? How far off the path of uniformity could these artists go? Something to think about, Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drclaw Posted September 3, 2012 Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) Hi there gents, Thanks for all this fascinating information. I'm loving this thread! Interestingly, the red enamel reverse is very similar to that found on some of the Qing Empire Orders of the Coloured Dragons, whose design inspired the Republican Order of the Golden Grain (which also have enameled reverses on the badges but not stars). A possible theory is that the ones with the red enamel reverse were early pieces, inspired by the Qing Coloured Dragons, which I suspect he might also have manufactured. Subsequently, as he became more established in manufacturing Orders, he began stamping his mark on the reverses. Insignia from some of the other manufacturers are of noticeably poorer quality with the tigers appearing "painted" as opposed to carefully laid cloisonne enamel. #103-104 clearly demonstrate this. JCwaters has provided me a very detailed history of that other frequently encountered maker, Yong Zheng. The 2008 UBS Tammann catalogue describes Yong Zheng as a Guangdong (Canton) manufacturer who also provided Striped Tigers to the Guomindang Government of Sun-Yat Sen and his successors which bestowed the order from 1921 to about 1927. The Tammann catalogue mentions that the Guangdong insignia frequently have lower-grade enamel with a tendency to decay ("enamel pest"). Other references however describe Yong Zheng as the Supervisor of the Beijing Mint. I'm in the process of translating JC's history and will post it up when I do. The mysterious "7XII" mark appears with the Yong Zheng insignia in the Tammann catalogue and going back through the earlier posts on this topic other numbers marked on Yong Zheng insignia include "8XI" "9I" and "X6". These could possibly be dates, batch numbers or the makers marks of individual craftsmen in the Yong Zheng workshop. My initial view was that these digital marks are unique to Yong Zheng. HOWEVER, Li Gongqing's book has a Lao Tian Di First Class set with both the sash badge and breast star bearing the Lao Tian Di and "7XII" stamps on the reverse. This would disprove the theory that these were batch numbers or markers marks. Given the presence of the stamps, I would assume the sash badge in Li's book has a metal reverse as opposed to red enamel. The set is accompanied with a red with yellow edge sash (which indicates an early award, later awards had a sash similar to the Second Class, i.e. yellow with green edges) and a black lacquer case. Li's book has another First Class set (with the red sash and black lacquer case). The depictions of the tigers are absolutely beautiful and by far the most realistic looking I've ever seen for this award. This would appear to be one of the rare Japan Mint specimens going by the higher quality black lacquer case and finer quality inscriptions which appear more Kanji than Hanzi. One question I have is the cases. Some are cloth like the Lao Tian Di example in #103. Others are black lacquer. Is there a reason for the variation? Gavin Edited September 8, 2012 by drclaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 I knew we would get some great input from you. Hi Richard, "great input"? No, simply wanted to show how different the apperances of two tigers that were made (most likely) in one workshop can be. How would one identify a fake? By posting his piece here? Regards, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted September 5, 2012 Author Share Posted September 5, 2012 (edited) Insignia from some of the other manufacturers are of noticeably poorer quality with the tigers appearing "painted" as opposed to carefully laid cloisonne enamel. #103-104 clearly demonstrate this. Personally I don`t see that quality is poorer... One question I have is the cases. Some are cloth like the Lao Tian Di example in #103. Others are black lacquer. Is there a reason for the variation? Gavin Simply different subcontractors. Actually there are three types of Striped Tiger boxes 1) wooden, glued over with cloth boxes 2) lacquer boxes 3) dermatin boxes Sometime you can hear that wooden boxes came from earlier period. Another naive speculation ... Wooden, glued over with cloth boxes were used in China until (at least) 1944. Cheers, Nick Edited September 5, 2012 by JapanX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drclaw Posted September 6, 2012 Share Posted September 6, 2012 Hey Nick, I don't believe I've come across dermatin boxes before. Would you have any images to share? I even Googled "dermatin" it comes up with an ointment for eczema :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted September 6, 2012 Author Share Posted September 6, 2012 I don't believe I've come across dermatin boxes before. Would you have any images to share? I'll post some images in a couple of days. I even Googled "dermatin" it comes up with an ointment for eczema Really should stop using this word Got same problem here http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/55440-red-cross-order-in-dermatin-box/ Ok. Boxes that glued over with something that should imitate leather (although usually it looks like color paper) Cheers, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted September 8, 2012 Author Share Posted September 8, 2012 Here they are 6th class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted September 8, 2012 Author Share Posted September 8, 2012 7th class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted September 8, 2012 Author Share Posted September 8, 2012 4th class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted September 8, 2012 Author Share Posted September 8, 2012 Look how the style of lacquer boxes varies 4th class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted September 8, 2012 Author Share Posted September 8, 2012 Another lacquered 4th Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted September 8, 2012 Author Share Posted September 8, 2012 Now check out this box for 2nd class (third variation ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted September 8, 2012 Author Share Posted September 8, 2012 1st class box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted September 8, 2012 Author Share Posted September 8, 2012 Another 1st class box and another style Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted September 8, 2012 Author Share Posted September 8, 2012 Now please take a look at these two Tiger`s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted September 8, 2012 Author Share Posted September 8, 2012 Look different are they?! But in reality they are exectly the same!!! Left tiger has numerous external enamel splits. Now wonder ... They were made by the same workshop ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted September 8, 2012 Author Share Posted September 8, 2012 http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2012/post-6141-0-97470900-1347103723.jpghttp://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2012/post-6141-0-82303000-1347103725.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drclaw Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 (edited) Thanks for posting these Nick. Those eczema cream boxes aren't very pretty are they. I corrected my earlier post where I suggested that #81-92 were Lao Tian Li. They are more likely Yong Zeng after all and very similar in appearance to #121-123. I have finished my translation of JC's history of Yong Zeng which I will post in a separate topic together with a history of Lao Tian Li that I compiled. Edited October 5, 2012 by drclaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanX Posted September 8, 2012 Author Share Posted September 8, 2012 Those eczema cream boxes aren't very pretty are they. Don`t forget about the contents of the boxes I have finished my translation of JC's history of Yong Zeng which I will post in a separate topic together with a history of Lao Tian Di that I compiled. Looking forward to your posting Cheers, Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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